4 ms·

30 minutes to charge...still puzzled why Tesla has gone with the recharge model rather than the battery swap model ala Better Place.

revelation 14y ago
Because the battery swap model doesn't exist. It's a cool idea, but it's not right here right now.
- JohnsonB 14y ago
  You can build swap stations incrementally though just like they are building these supercharging stations, so I don't see what the difference is, other than swapping is quicker/better.
  - todayiamme 14y ago
    You're forgetting that in the case of Telsa's car the entire battery pack is a part of the undercarriage and hot swapping in that case is quite difficult.
    - jpxxx 14y ago
      I've heard otherwise: hot-swapping was a design goal if not yet supported.
  - schiffern 14y ago
    > quicker/better Quicker may be true, but "better"? Swap stations are more expensive, they constrain vehicle design, battery shape, and battery technology upgradeability. This makes the vehicle some combination of heavier, less safe, or more expensive (pick your poison). People don't seem to realize that the limiting factor for charge rate isn't current. It's cooling. A far simpler solution would just pump coolant through the charging port so that a large off-board cooler can be used. The cells in the Leaf and Volt could be fully charged in 20 minutes with adequate cooling. Independent (though amateur) tests by RC hobbyists have demonstrated hundreds of cycles at that charge rate with little loss in capacity. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=672512 http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=672512
    - sbierwagen 14y ago
      cooling ? The Roadster has a water-cooled battery pack, and I assume the Model S does too.
      - schiffern 14y ago
        It's not the size of the pipes. It's the size of the chiller.
- recuter 14y ago
  I've been in a Better Place car here in Israel and experienced the swap, it works. Also, Shai Agassi recently completed a full cross country trip (North to South). Small country, but still. What makes you think this is not a viable solution?
  - spullara 14y ago
    Israel is only 263 miles from north to south. The Tesla S (85kwH)can go 300 miles. Seems like the Tesla might be overkill for that country.
    - kamaal 14y ago
      Hmm, This seems to be a perfect use case for Israel.If you are a regular office goer, charge once and may be use it for a whole week and half.
  - sbierwagen 14y ago
    "Small country" is a bit of an overstatement. If Israel was a US state, it'd be the 47th largest.
    - marshray 14y ago
      You mean the 3rd smallest? That doesn't sound very big.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        Exactly. It's about the same shape and size as New Jersey (smaller actually). I can't count the number of times I've driven across the entirety of New Jersey without a second thought because I wanted a cheeseburger.
        kamaal 14y ago
        One poster says Israel is around 263 miles north to south. So you drove ~250 miles many times just to get a cheese burger? Seriously?
- danboarder 14y ago
  Drivers are already using battery swap stations in Israel and a few other test areas. Swap for a full battery takes less than 5 minutes. The cars built to work with this system are Renault and Nissan I believe. Check out the standardized batteries (drivers subscribe to a 'battery plan' so any full battery is works the same). video: Drive Switch Go - Better Place short video http://youtu.be/VR3oLV4fdcE http://youtu.be/VR3oLV4fdcE longer video http://youtu.be/S3Os25gP4yA http://youtu.be/S3Os25gP4yA //edited to add video links
  - brc 14y ago
    Battery swap technology constrains car design. The Model S, I believe, sandwiches the battery packs throughout the car to avoid one big lump of mass sitting somewhere. While I think the battery swap idea is a good one, it has many problems, not the least of which is getting all the manufacturers to agree to a myriad of standards. And agreeing to many of those standards means delegating part of your design process.
    - hamai 14y ago
      It's beyond difficult for costumers to agree on 30min waits between 3h runs.
sp332 14y ago
The battery pack weighs 1,000 pounds so it's not as simple as picking it up and taking a new one off a shelf. Also they would have to maintain a huge inventory of unused fuel cells at all these stations, each slowly aging into uselessness.
jfoutz 14y ago
The batteries are part of the frame. They add stiffness and strength. They're not removable. Not easily anyway.
benackles 14y ago
I agree. 30 minutes is too long to charge for any practical purpose. They're going to have to improve the wait time if they're going to break out of the uber EV geek community. The Better Place battery switching model, while it may not be feasible for current models it has to be the goal for future models. It also seems as thought there should be more partnerships involved in reaching the type of scale there going to to want to achieve. It seems like there would be a perfect opportunity to team up with Better Place to scale there infrastructure. Tesla should focus on building the best cars possible while letting Better Place handle the charging and/or battery switching infrastructure. I love the idea of Solar City getting involved as well. Those three companies are on my list of the few companies to watch in clean tech.
- jerrya 14y ago
  If it was safe and quick, I would prefer the battery swap model because as it is now, I am terrified (maybe ignorance) of getting a bum set of batteries or mis-charging them, and ending up with a $5 - $10K bill for new batteries for my car. It would seem the swap model would most likely spread the cost and maintenance to many users and leave charging to the experts.
  - wmf 14y ago
    getting a bum set of batteries That would be covered under warranty like any defect on any car. or mis-charging them As long as you don't let them get completely empty, this is impossible.

revelation 14y ago

Because the battery swap model doesn't exist. It's a cool idea, but it's not right here right now.

JohnsonB 14y ago
You can build swap stations incrementally though just like they are building these supercharging stations, so I don't see what the difference is, other than swapping is quicker/better.
- todayiamme 14y ago
  You're forgetting that in the case of Telsa's car the entire battery pack is a part of the undercarriage and hot swapping in that case is quite difficult.
  - jpxxx 14y ago
    I've heard otherwise: hot-swapping was a design goal if not yet supported.
- schiffern 14y ago
  > quicker/better Quicker may be true, but "better"? Swap stations are more expensive, they constrain vehicle design, battery shape, and battery technology upgradeability. This makes the vehicle some combination of heavier, less safe, or more expensive (pick your poison). People don't seem to realize that the limiting factor for charge rate isn't current. It's cooling. A far simpler solution would just pump coolant through the charging port so that a large off-board cooler can be used. The cells in the Leaf and Volt could be fully charged in 20 minutes with adequate cooling. Independent (though amateur) tests by RC hobbyists have demonstrated hundreds of cycles at that charge rate with little loss in capacity. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=672512 http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=672512
  - sbierwagen 14y ago
    cooling ? The Roadster has a water-cooled battery pack, and I assume the Model S does too.
    - schiffern 14y ago
      It's not the size of the pipes. It's the size of the chiller.
recuter 14y ago
I've been in a Better Place car here in Israel and experienced the swap, it works. Also, Shai Agassi recently completed a full cross country trip (North to South). Small country, but still. What makes you think this is not a viable solution?
- spullara 14y ago
  Israel is only 263 miles from north to south. The Tesla S (85kwH)can go 300 miles. Seems like the Tesla might be overkill for that country.
  - kamaal 14y ago
    Hmm, This seems to be a perfect use case for Israel.If you are a regular office goer, charge once and may be use it for a whole week and half.
- sbierwagen 14y ago
  "Small country" is a bit of an overstatement. If Israel was a US state, it'd be the 47th largest.
  - marshray 14y ago
    You mean the 3rd smallest? That doesn't sound very big.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Exactly. It's about the same shape and size as New Jersey (smaller actually). I can't count the number of times I've driven across the entirety of New Jersey without a second thought because I wanted a cheeseburger.
      - kamaal 14y ago
        One poster says Israel is around 263 miles north to south. So you drove ~250 miles many times just to get a cheese burger? Seriously?
danboarder 14y ago
Drivers are already using battery swap stations in Israel and a few other test areas. Swap for a full battery takes less than 5 minutes. The cars built to work with this system are Renault and Nissan I believe. Check out the standardized batteries (drivers subscribe to a 'battery plan' so any full battery is works the same). video: Drive Switch Go - Better Place short video http://youtu.be/VR3oLV4fdcE http://youtu.be/VR3oLV4fdcE longer video http://youtu.be/S3Os25gP4yA http://youtu.be/S3Os25gP4yA //edited to add video links
- brc 14y ago
  Battery swap technology constrains car design. The Model S, I believe, sandwiches the battery packs throughout the car to avoid one big lump of mass sitting somewhere. While I think the battery swap idea is a good one, it has many problems, not the least of which is getting all the manufacturers to agree to a myriad of standards. And agreeing to many of those standards means delegating part of your design process.
  - hamai 14y ago
    It's beyond difficult for costumers to agree on 30min waits between 3h runs.

sp332 14y ago

The battery pack weighs 1,000 pounds so it's not as simple as picking it up and taking a new one off a shelf. Also they would have to maintain a huge inventory of unused fuel cells at all these stations, each slowly aging into uselessness.

jfoutz 14y ago

The batteries are part of the frame. They add stiffness and strength. They're not removable. Not easily anyway.

benackles 14y ago

I agree. 30 minutes is too long to charge for any practical purpose. They're going to have to improve the wait time if they're going to break out of the uber EV geek community. The Better Place battery switching model, while it may not be feasible for current models it has to be the goal for future models. It also seems as thought there should be more partnerships involved in reaching the type of scale there going to to want to achieve. It seems like there would be a perfect opportunity to team up with Better Place to scale there infrastructure. Tesla should focus on building the best cars possible while letting Better Place handle the charging and/or battery switching infrastructure. I love the idea of Solar City getting involved as well. Those three companies are on my list of the few companies to watch in clean tech.

jerrya 14y ago
If it was safe and quick, I would prefer the battery swap model because as it is now, I am terrified (maybe ignorance) of getting a bum set of batteries or mis-charging them, and ending up with a $5 - $10K bill for new batteries for my car. It would seem the swap model would most likely spread the cost and maintenance to many users and leave charging to the experts.
- wmf 14y ago
  getting a bum set of batteries That would be covered under warranty like any defect on any car. or mis-charging them As long as you don't let them get completely empty, this is impossible.