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* s/impeachment/“conviction by the Senate” Impeachment by itself has been shown to accomplish nothing. There is no other mechanism except conviction by the Sen

* s/impeachment/“conviction by the Senate” Impeachment by itself has been shown to accomplish nothing. There is no other mechanism except conviction by the Senate to address constitutional or legal violations made by the president. Also no president has ever been impeached by a House which is controlled by a majority of the same party of the President. If Congress had a full Republican majority during Nixon’s years, he would not have been impeached. If Congress had a full Democratic majority during Clinton’s years, he would not have been impeached. Edit: “Approval voting” is the appropriate escape hatch from 2-party politics. It lets you get rid of primaries entirely and run all the top-n candidates who have the greatest number of valid nomination signatures. Its advantage over range-voting/etc is that it is dead-simple to explain to voters: Put a checkmark next to any candidate that you're "okay" with. The candidate with the most checkmarks wins. https://rangevoting.org/CompChart.html https://rangevoting.org/CompChart.html

LunaSea 1y ago
This mostly shows that political parties are the problem themselves rather than the political mechanics of the system themselves.
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  Except that 2 parties emerge like clockwork from the political mechanics of the system. Winner-takes all almost guarantee a two-party system. Maybe you didn't mean the system as broadly.
- theptip 1y ago
  Now we are talking. And the dynamic that makes political parties so toxic IMO is “first past the post” voting. If it’s your team or the “worse” team, you tolerate any flaw in your team. If there was a pressure valve where another party can simply take over (for example see Reform vs Conservative parties in the UK, not that I am thrilled with the underlying direction) then there is an alternative: cut bait and condemn what used to be “your team”, and start a new one.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - ModernMech 1y ago
    > If there was a pressure valve where another party can simply take over That's exactly what happened though -- the MAGA party took over. Conservatives "cut bait" with traditional Republicans, condemned them (see how they talk about Liz and Dick Cheney or even GWB, Mitt Romney, and John McCain, their own presidential nominees), and started a new party within the rotting corpse of the old GOP. There's still some "Republican" branding around but if you pay attention they're not waving "Republican" flags or wearing "Republican" hats anymore.
    - tastyfreeze 1y ago
      Unfortunately taking over a dominant party was the easiest way to have a "different" party that could actually win. Both parties have built a mountain of obstacles to prevent a third party from ever getting close to challenging them.
      - ModernMech 1y ago
        I wonder, then is there a path to getting what you want by making the parties more democratic rather than making more parties?
        tastyfreeze 1y ago
        I find it best to view parties like any other faction or gang. They don't want challengers to their current power. Primaries are supposed to be the democratic way to steer a party but we've seen how that goes. They aren't going to change unless it is from within. So,remove all obstacles to being on the ballot and let the existing parties whine about it when they start to lose.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - 1y ago
- microtonal 1y ago
  The political mechanics of the system result in a two-party system, because no other party ever stands a chance of getting seats. Coalition systems may be less stable, but when you need at least three parties to form a government, they tend to keep each other in check better. Yes, I know that there are exceptions, but seats should be proportional to the vote. If you have 100 seats, that party only getting 5% of the votes should also have 5% of the seats. In the country where I live, people do consider themselves leftist, centrists, or right-wing, but a vast majority only decides what specific party to vote during the campaign. We have the opposite issue, since there is not electoral threshold, we now have a lot of small and middle-sized parties, making it harder to form a coalition. (Would be possible to address with an electoral threshold of 2-5%.)
- jerlam 1y ago
  Political parties were infamously called out by the first US President over 200 years ago, the only one to not have a political party: https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/past-projects/quotes/article/however-political-parties-may-now-and-then-answer-popular-ends-they-are-likely-in-the-course-of-time-and-things-to-become-potent-engines-by-which-cunning-ambitious-and-unprincipled-men-will-be-enabled-to-subvert-the-power-of-the-people-and-to-usurp-for-th https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/past-proj... Having a bad system is one thing. Having a bad system and no one able or willing to fix it is worse.
NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
>If Congress had a full Republican majority during Nixon’s years, he would not have been impeached. That's at best "unclear". Attitudes were different, and there is some evidence of principled intentions even by the Republicans. If I were pressed for an answer, I'd say that the Republicans would have impeached, just weeks later than the Democrats. But, during that era Congress still thought itself coequal to the presidency and wanted to preserve their own power, which might have had something to do with that too. >If Congress had a full Democratic majority during Clinton’s years, he would not have been impeached. Which is funny if you ask me. They still defend him to this day, despite the fact that he opened the presidency up to extortion by any intelligence service competent enough to have caught on to his behavior.
- nerdsniper 1y ago
  > They still defend him to this day Older democratic voters generally do seem to defend him but a growing number of younger democratic voters seem to identify his actions as tantamount to statutory rape, and support his impeachment in principle. The establishment Democratic politicians also generally seem to defend him or at least refuse to condemn his actions, but most of the politicians also lean older. Most people I talk with about it seem divided along the lines of morality in terms of the interaction and level of consent, rather than along debate over the security risks. Security risk seems like a valid point of concern to me. That risk could be mitigated by a president being open about their promiscuity with both family and the public during their campaign - e.g. when both Russia and USA attempted to sextort and blackmail Sukarno (the president of the Philippines) he was delighted that his encounters were filmed and requested extra copies of the kompromat.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
    >but a growing number of younger democratic voters seem to identify his actions as tantamount to statutory rape, I've picked up on that too. Which, in my opinion is strange... she was 22 or 23 wasn't she? We just have to wait another 2 generations, and those will think themselves still children at 35.

LunaSea 1y ago

This mostly shows that political parties are the problem themselves rather than the political mechanics of the system themselves.

actionfromafar 1y ago
Except that 2 parties emerge like clockwork from the political mechanics of the system. Winner-takes all almost guarantee a two-party system. Maybe you didn't mean the system as broadly.
theptip 1y ago
Now we are talking. And the dynamic that makes political parties so toxic IMO is “first past the post” voting. If it’s your team or the “worse” team, you tolerate any flaw in your team. If there was a pressure valve where another party can simply take over (for example see Reform vs Conservative parties in the UK, not that I am thrilled with the underlying direction) then there is an alternative: cut bait and condemn what used to be “your team”, and start a new one.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ModernMech 1y ago
  > If there was a pressure valve where another party can simply take over That's exactly what happened though -- the MAGA party took over. Conservatives "cut bait" with traditional Republicans, condemned them (see how they talk about Liz and Dick Cheney or even GWB, Mitt Romney, and John McCain, their own presidential nominees), and started a new party within the rotting corpse of the old GOP. There's still some "Republican" branding around but if you pay attention they're not waving "Republican" flags or wearing "Republican" hats anymore.
  - tastyfreeze 1y ago
    Unfortunately taking over a dominant party was the easiest way to have a "different" party that could actually win. Both parties have built a mountain of obstacles to prevent a third party from ever getting close to challenging them.
    - ModernMech 1y ago
      I wonder, then is there a path to getting what you want by making the parties more democratic rather than making more parties?
      - tastyfreeze 1y ago
        I find it best to view parties like any other faction or gang. They don't want challengers to their current power. Primaries are supposed to be the democratic way to steer a party but we've seen how that goes. They aren't going to change unless it is from within. So,remove all obstacles to being on the ballot and let the existing parties whine about it when they start to lose.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - 1y ago
microtonal 1y ago
The political mechanics of the system result in a two-party system, because no other party ever stands a chance of getting seats. Coalition systems may be less stable, but when you need at least three parties to form a government, they tend to keep each other in check better. Yes, I know that there are exceptions, but seats should be proportional to the vote. If you have 100 seats, that party only getting 5% of the votes should also have 5% of the seats. In the country where I live, people do consider themselves leftist, centrists, or right-wing, but a vast majority only decides what specific party to vote during the campaign. We have the opposite issue, since there is not electoral threshold, we now have a lot of small and middle-sized parties, making it harder to form a coalition. (Would be possible to address with an electoral threshold of 2-5%.)
jerlam 1y ago
Political parties were infamously called out by the first US President over 200 years ago, the only one to not have a political party: https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/past-projects/quotes/article/however-political-parties-may-now-and-then-answer-popular-ends-they-are-likely-in-the-course-of-time-and-things-to-become-potent-engines-by-which-cunning-ambitious-and-unprincipled-men-will-be-enabled-to-subvert-the-power-of-the-people-and-to-usurp-for-th https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/past-proj... Having a bad system is one thing. Having a bad system and no one able or willing to fix it is worse.

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago

>If Congress had a full Republican majority during Nixon’s years, he would not have been impeached. That's at best "unclear". Attitudes were different, and there is some evidence of principled intentions even by the Republicans. If I were pressed for an answer, I'd say that the Republicans would have impeached, just weeks later than the Democrats. But, during that era Congress still thought itself coequal to the presidency and wanted to preserve their own power, which might have had something to do with that too. >If Congress had a full Democratic majority during Clinton’s years, he would not have been impeached. Which is funny if you ask me. They still defend him to this day, despite the fact that he opened the presidency up to extortion by any intelligence service competent enough to have caught on to his behavior.

nerdsniper 1y ago
> They still defend him to this day Older democratic voters generally do seem to defend him but a growing number of younger democratic voters seem to identify his actions as tantamount to statutory rape, and support his impeachment in principle. The establishment Democratic politicians also generally seem to defend him or at least refuse to condemn his actions, but most of the politicians also lean older. Most people I talk with about it seem divided along the lines of morality in terms of the interaction and level of consent, rather than along debate over the security risks. Security risk seems like a valid point of concern to me. That risk could be mitigated by a president being open about their promiscuity with both family and the public during their campaign - e.g. when both Russia and USA attempted to sextort and blackmail Sukarno (the president of the Philippines) he was delighted that his encounters were filmed and requested extra copies of the kompromat.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  >but a growing number of younger democratic voters seem to identify his actions as tantamount to statutory rape, I've picked up on that too. Which, in my opinion is strange... she was 22 or 23 wasn't she? We just have to wait another 2 generations, and those will think themselves still children at 35.