4 ms·

>Attractive female whom men What is it on the Internet with calling women 'females'? I'd understand if you had written 'males' and 'females' OR 'men' and 'wome

>Attractive female whom men What is it on the Internet with calling women 'females'? I'd understand if you had written 'males' and 'females' OR 'men' and 'women'. This indicates an attempt at objectification to me.

ttoinou 1y ago
Isnt objectification required to make the point here? We’re talking about spies
- smallnix 1y ago
  I should have been more precise, I meant one-sided objectification. I thought the point would come across with my 'OR' example.
rich_sasha 1y ago
In fairness OP also refers to men as "males". Then later "men". I don't have a view one way or another but maybe this time it isn't about women.
- smallnix 1y ago
  I missed that one, thanks. This changes the optics on this for me. I guess I am more attuned to this when the topic is "'sex warfare' by beautiful Russian and Chinese young women on nerds".
lapsis_beeftech 1y ago
Male and female are preferred terms because they are objective and emotionally neutral while avoiding the sexism of misusing the word "man" to mean male human.
- dijit 1y ago
  I'm not here to spark a debate or anything. just wanted to share a quick note on etymology since you mentioned "sexism", and I'll bow out after this. You do you! Historically, "man" comes from Old English "mann," which originally meant "human being" or "person" in a gender-neutral way, without specifying male or female. Back then, the word for a male human was actually "wer" (like in "werewolf"), and for female, it was "wif" (as in "wife"). Over time, "man" shifted to primarily mean "male," but terms like "mankind" hung onto that older, inclusive sense. So, using "man" in the "mankind" context isn't really a misuse or inherently sexist: it's tapping into the word's original roots. That said, I get why folks prefer "male" and "female" for clarity today. Peace!
  - smallnix 1y ago
    > using "man" in the "mankind" context isn't really a misuse or inherently sexist I understand the ethymologic perspective, but the above statement is part of on-going discussion. E.g. > To refer to all human beings, use terms like “individuals,” “people,” or “persons” rather than “man” or “mankind” to be accurate and inclusive. https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-language/gender https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-... I personally like 'man' as it had a poetic ring to me. I also think it makes sense to pay attention to the differing perception of language, as I want to be able to communicate effectively with all kinds of people.
surgical_fire 1y ago
Many people speaking in English are not native speakers, even when they communicate fluently - such as yours truly. I use "Males" or "Men", and "Females" or "Women" interchangeably. This is the first time I see anyone indicating there is a connotation for objectification there.
- smallnix 1y ago
  > This is the first time I see anyone indicating there is a connotation for objectification there. Happens to all of us, we are all inside our small information bubbles. The curious engage in broader conversation, such as us on HN. Let me drop some links to illustrate that this is not just my personal (mis-) understanding: - "Female, woman: Revised guidance noting that some people object to the use of female as a descriptor for women because it can be seen as emphasizing biology and reproductive capacity over gender identity. It can also sometimes carry misogynistic tones that may vary in severity by race, class and other factors." AP Stylebook recommends female as adjective, women as noun (https://help.apstylebook.com/support/solutions/articles/66000156253-what-s-new-in-the-ap-stylebook-56th-edition- https://help.apstylebook.com/support/solutions/articles/6600...) - "Otherwise, avoid using “male” and “female” as nouns and instead use the specific nouns for people of different ages (e.g., women)." (https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-language/gender https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-...) - "Overall, participants rated the words females/males as more biological and technical, and women/men as higher on all other dimensions (e.g., appropriate, polite, warm)" (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36348255/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36348255/) - https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/lady-woman-female-usage https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/lady-woman-female-us... - https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/462498/the-use-of-male-female-instead-of-e-g-man-woman-in-everyday-speech https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/462498/the-use-o... I don't ascribe to everything written here, but I think it makes clear that wider discourse on the topic exists. Especially when using female(s) as a noun.
  - surgical_fire 1y ago
    > Female, woman: Revised guidance noting that some people object to the use of female as a descriptor for women because it can be seen as emphasizing biology and reproductive capacity over gender identity. This reads as using "male" and "female" is more precise? Communication many times is about being precise no? Gender identity is typically irrelevant and in many ways too personal.
palmotea 1y ago
> What is it on the Internet with calling women 'females'? I'd understand if you had written 'males' and 'females' OR 'men' and 'women'. This indicates an attempt at objectification to me. It's probably the new concept of treating "gender" as distinct from sex, and the attempt to claim terms like "man" and "woman" and make them ambiguous with regards to sex. So some people who want to be specific increasingly use sex terms like "male" and "female" instead.
joquarky 1y ago
I just assume they're Ferengi.

ttoinou 1y ago

Isnt objectification required to make the point here? We’re talking about spies

smallnix 1y ago
I should have been more precise, I meant one-sided objectification. I thought the point would come across with my 'OR' example.

rich_sasha 1y ago

In fairness OP also refers to men as "males". Then later "men". I don't have a view one way or another but maybe this time it isn't about women.

smallnix 1y ago
I missed that one, thanks. This changes the optics on this for me. I guess I am more attuned to this when the topic is "'sex warfare' by beautiful Russian and Chinese young women on nerds".

lapsis_beeftech 1y ago

Male and female are preferred terms because they are objective and emotionally neutral while avoiding the sexism of misusing the word "man" to mean male human.

dijit 1y ago
I'm not here to spark a debate or anything. just wanted to share a quick note on etymology since you mentioned "sexism", and I'll bow out after this. You do you! Historically, "man" comes from Old English "mann," which originally meant "human being" or "person" in a gender-neutral way, without specifying male or female. Back then, the word for a male human was actually "wer" (like in "werewolf"), and for female, it was "wif" (as in "wife"). Over time, "man" shifted to primarily mean "male," but terms like "mankind" hung onto that older, inclusive sense. So, using "man" in the "mankind" context isn't really a misuse or inherently sexist: it's tapping into the word's original roots. That said, I get why folks prefer "male" and "female" for clarity today. Peace!
- smallnix 1y ago
  > using "man" in the "mankind" context isn't really a misuse or inherently sexist I understand the ethymologic perspective, but the above statement is part of on-going discussion. E.g. > To refer to all human beings, use terms like “individuals,” “people,” or “persons” rather than “man” or “mankind” to be accurate and inclusive. https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-language/gender https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-... I personally like 'man' as it had a poetic ring to me. I also think it makes sense to pay attention to the differing perception of language, as I want to be able to communicate effectively with all kinds of people.

surgical_fire 1y ago

Many people speaking in English are not native speakers, even when they communicate fluently - such as yours truly. I use "Males" or "Men", and "Females" or "Women" interchangeably. This is the first time I see anyone indicating there is a connotation for objectification there.

smallnix 1y ago
> This is the first time I see anyone indicating there is a connotation for objectification there. Happens to all of us, we are all inside our small information bubbles. The curious engage in broader conversation, such as us on HN. Let me drop some links to illustrate that this is not just my personal (mis-) understanding: - "Female, woman: Revised guidance noting that some people object to the use of female as a descriptor for women because it can be seen as emphasizing biology and reproductive capacity over gender identity. It can also sometimes carry misogynistic tones that may vary in severity by race, class and other factors." AP Stylebook recommends female as adjective, women as noun (https://help.apstylebook.com/support/solutions/articles/66000156253-what-s-new-in-the-ap-stylebook-56th-edition- https://help.apstylebook.com/support/solutions/articles/6600...) - "Otherwise, avoid using “male” and “female” as nouns and instead use the specific nouns for people of different ages (e.g., women)." (https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-language/gender https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-...) - "Overall, participants rated the words females/males as more biological and technical, and women/men as higher on all other dimensions (e.g., appropriate, polite, warm)" (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36348255/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36348255/) - https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/lady-woman-female-usage https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/lady-woman-female-us... - https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/462498/the-use-of-male-female-instead-of-e-g-man-woman-in-everyday-speech https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/462498/the-use-o... I don't ascribe to everything written here, but I think it makes clear that wider discourse on the topic exists. Especially when using female(s) as a noun.
- surgical_fire 1y ago
  > Female, woman: Revised guidance noting that some people object to the use of female as a descriptor for women because it can be seen as emphasizing biology and reproductive capacity over gender identity. This reads as using "male" and "female" is more precise? Communication many times is about being precise no? Gender identity is typically irrelevant and in many ways too personal.

palmotea 1y ago

> What is it on the Internet with calling women 'females'? I'd understand if you had written 'males' and 'females' OR 'men' and 'women'. This indicates an attempt at objectification to me. It's probably the new concept of treating "gender" as distinct from sex, and the attempt to claim terms like "man" and "woman" and make them ambiguous with regards to sex. So some people who want to be specific increasingly use sex terms like "male" and "female" instead.

joquarky 1y ago

I just assume they're Ferengi.