4 ms·

As a lay boardgamer, what makes a board game abstract?

vkou 1y ago
Chess is an abstract proxy for a wargame, but is not in itself a wargame. 'Abstract' is somewhere on the chess side of the spectrum between Go and moving miniature battle tanks around and flipping to page 237 of Appendix E to look up how much water the average Italian soldier needed to boil his pasta in the Tobruk campaign.
- mNovak 1y ago
  As an aside, I have a slightly masochistic desire to implement an online-playable version of Campaign for North Africa. It bothers me that they can credibly claim there is no documented case of someone finishing the game.
quuxplusone 1y ago
No text, no chance, perfect information. If you have to read things, roll things, or hide things, it's not an abstract. (This fails to include backgammon and Parcheesi when maybe it should, and includes Zark City when somehow I feel it shouldn't, but it's not a bad starting point.) Additionally: No dexterity (which is kind of a special case of "no chance").
- Paracompact 1y ago
  The most important subjective criterion, IMO, and the one from which all other objective criteria are just approximations, is that the game be as rules simple and as strategically deep as possible. If there are any superficial criteria, it's that the theming be "austere" (which is what makes Zark City stand out slightly).
- fsckboy 1y ago
  is there a game that is an abstract version of D&D? i've always been curious about the gameplay, but have absolutely no interest in reading past words like "wizard", "mage", or "eldritch", and i won't look at anything where i have to see or imagine that somebody is wearing a cape, or even play with gamers who are willing to imagine they are wearing capes in other games.
  - krapp 1y ago
    Why do you have such an aversion to capes? There's no rule saying you have to play as a character in a cape. If you're asking if there's a version of D&D that's pure math and no roleplay, the closest thing I can imagine would be Dragon Dice, or something with the mechanics of a very basic roguelike. The math in D&D itself such as in combat is affected by your character's stats and the encounters created by the DM, so the mechanics and the role playing are kind of tied together.
    - vkazanov 1y ago
      The thing is that dragons and magic and Harry Potter all become irrelevant at some point in life. Power fantasies do have an expiration date. Now, the genre itself, all the storytelling involved, can easily be adapted to more serious, or even abstract, thinking. In fact, it was, and there are plenty of alternative rpg universes. But, similar to how serious non-marvel movies are a niche, serious rpgs are also less popular.
      - atakan_gurkan 1y ago
        I understand where you are coming from, but I hope you realize this is very subjective. The things you mentioned and other elements of the fantasy genre do not become irrelevant for many people through their life, well into adult life as well. In fact, they may become irrelevant and become relevant again. Just to make it clear (and perhaps to state the obvious), you are not believing in these when you play these games or read these books, you are voluntarily suspending disbelief.
      - krapp 1y ago
        They're all games. They're all escapist power fantasies. No one wants to role play a character who doesn't matter to the story, regardless of the genre.
        vkazanov 1y ago
        Well, this depends on a story. Escapist? Yes. All of them, by the very definition of, ehm, role play. Power? Not necessarily. Numerous rpgs have nothing to do with power. Be a Cat has nothing to do with power, and everything with escapism (and cats). I mean, there is nothing wrong with power and fantasies. Or powerless fantasies, as in horror stories, or whatever.
jader201 1y ago
To me, when I think “abstract”, I think “no theme”. Games that aren’t abstract have a theme that helps make sense of the rules of the game. There are also games with themes that don’t really help make sense of the rules — the theme is just pasted on. These are still considered abstract, despite technically having a theme. The “ameritrash” genre are known for having strong themes that tie to the rules of the game. E.g. a lot of co-op games with plastic figures. Old school euro games often have a pasted on theme, and are more abstract.

vkou 1y ago

Chess is an abstract proxy for a wargame, but is not in itself a wargame. 'Abstract' is somewhere on the chess side of the spectrum between Go and moving miniature battle tanks around and flipping to page 237 of Appendix E to look up how much water the average Italian soldier needed to boil his pasta in the Tobruk campaign.

mNovak 1y ago
As an aside, I have a slightly masochistic desire to implement an online-playable version of Campaign for North Africa. It bothers me that they can credibly claim there is no documented case of someone finishing the game.

quuxplusone 1y ago

No text, no chance, perfect information. If you have to read things, roll things, or hide things, it's not an abstract. (This fails to include backgammon and Parcheesi when maybe it should, and includes Zark City when somehow I feel it shouldn't, but it's not a bad starting point.) Additionally: No dexterity (which is kind of a special case of "no chance").

Paracompact 1y ago
The most important subjective criterion, IMO, and the one from which all other objective criteria are just approximations, is that the game be as rules simple and as strategically deep as possible. If there are any superficial criteria, it's that the theming be "austere" (which is what makes Zark City stand out slightly).
fsckboy 1y ago
is there a game that is an abstract version of D&D? i've always been curious about the gameplay, but have absolutely no interest in reading past words like "wizard", "mage", or "eldritch", and i won't look at anything where i have to see or imagine that somebody is wearing a cape, or even play with gamers who are willing to imagine they are wearing capes in other games.
- krapp 1y ago
  Why do you have such an aversion to capes? There's no rule saying you have to play as a character in a cape. If you're asking if there's a version of D&D that's pure math and no roleplay, the closest thing I can imagine would be Dragon Dice, or something with the mechanics of a very basic roguelike. The math in D&D itself such as in combat is affected by your character's stats and the encounters created by the DM, so the mechanics and the role playing are kind of tied together.
  - vkazanov 1y ago
    The thing is that dragons and magic and Harry Potter all become irrelevant at some point in life. Power fantasies do have an expiration date. Now, the genre itself, all the storytelling involved, can easily be adapted to more serious, or even abstract, thinking. In fact, it was, and there are plenty of alternative rpg universes. But, similar to how serious non-marvel movies are a niche, serious rpgs are also less popular.
    - atakan_gurkan 1y ago
      I understand where you are coming from, but I hope you realize this is very subjective. The things you mentioned and other elements of the fantasy genre do not become irrelevant for many people through their life, well into adult life as well. In fact, they may become irrelevant and become relevant again. Just to make it clear (and perhaps to state the obvious), you are not believing in these when you play these games or read these books, you are voluntarily suspending disbelief.
    - krapp 1y ago
      They're all games. They're all escapist power fantasies. No one wants to role play a character who doesn't matter to the story, regardless of the genre.
      - vkazanov 1y ago
        Well, this depends on a story. Escapist? Yes. All of them, by the very definition of, ehm, role play. Power? Not necessarily. Numerous rpgs have nothing to do with power. Be a Cat has nothing to do with power, and everything with escapism (and cats). I mean, there is nothing wrong with power and fantasies. Or powerless fantasies, as in horror stories, or whatever.

jader201 1y ago

To me, when I think “abstract”, I think “no theme”. Games that aren’t abstract have a theme that helps make sense of the rules of the game. There are also games with themes that don’t really help make sense of the rules — the theme is just pasted on. These are still considered abstract, despite technically having a theme. The “ameritrash” genre are known for having strong themes that tie to the rules of the game. E.g. a lot of co-op games with plastic figures. Old school euro games often have a pasted on theme, and are more abstract.