6 ms·

I just refuse to buy games that rely on kernel-level anti-cheat to work.

by klipklop 1y ago

simlevesque 1y ago
Playing any PvP games without them isn't fun anymore.
- eru 1y ago
  I suspect playing any PvP game with random members of the public? Playing Streetfighter 2 with people you know should still be fun?
  - cortesoft 1y ago
    As an avid gamer for 35+ years, I have played a ton of PvP both locally and online. One of those experiences can't replace the other. I am married with two young children. All of my video game time comes in the hour or two after they go to bed and before I go to bed. I don't have friends around at that time, yet I still want to get some good multiplayer gaming in. Online matchmaking is amazing these days. You are able to match up against people of about your skill level at any time of day. That experience is magical, compared to the matchmaking from 25 years ago where you would try to find a random lobby, and the players might be amazing or terrible.
    - Gigachad 1y ago
      For most online games, especially ones without chat, playing against sufficiently good bots is better than online. You don’t have to worry about cheating, connection issues, can quit mid game without issue, etc.
      - cortesoft 1y ago
        That is fine if you feel that way, but I really don't. I get much more satisfaction playing against real people. It just doesn't get my competitive juices flowing in the same way when I play against bots. There is no psychological aspect when you play against bots. I know what I like.
        eru 1y ago
        But what if you don't know they are bots? :)
        Gigachad 1y ago
        Wasn’t that the case for a lot of the .io style games, where they just disguised bots as real players.
dijit 1y ago
I have been working in the industry now for 11 years, and this defeatism surrounding anticheat is frustrating. Especially when Epics anticheat which used to be free to use, supports linux.
- Marsymars 1y ago
  Is it defeatism? I don’t game on Linux and generally like Windows, but from a principle and security perspective I’d preferably check a box on Windows to disallow any kernel-level anticheat from installing, and avoid any such games.
  - dijit 1y ago
    That’s fine, then those games are not available to you. I’ll be honest, no matter how unpopular it is I’m really sorry, but those kind of solutions genuinely are the only way. I’ve said it before on HN, but we really do try everything. And not having anything leads to some of the worst experiences possible. If you genuinely have a better solution, then you are more than welcome to enter the industry and make a significant amount of money. Hell, I’ll offer you a job right now.
    - ndriscoll 1y ago
      Simple solution that makes everyone happy: make it optional. Anticheat was optional in pretty much every 00s game that had it, and even in the servers that had it disabled, cheating was still rarely an issue. Diablo 2 even let you still bring your single player characters that you could obviously cheat with (which everyone knew from Diablo 1) onto Open Battle.net. Make the Internet optional like it used to be while you're at it with LAN/direct IP support so you can stick to friends only and keep your purchase forever. Oh but then you can't make all of your revenue on stuff like gambling for textures that anyone could just mod in like they used to.
      - dijit 1y ago
        Interesting thought, maybe I do this in my next game. I doubt it will show what you expect, but hey, I’ve been wrong before.
cortesoft 1y ago
I have been playing Madden and FIFA/FC for 30 years now. I love them. I love being able to play competitively against other people without having cheaters in every game. Those two desires (to play Madden and FIFA/FC and play online without cheaters) requires that I not simply refuse to buy those games.
- eru 1y ago
  Sure, but on the margin you can still change your behaviour. Ie for games that previously you were on the fence about, a look at whether they play or do not play well on the Steam Deck or Linux in general can push you over the fence (on way or another).
  - cortesoft 1y ago
    Like I said, I have a lot of games that I love playing on the Steam Deck. I am often looking for games that run well on Steam Deck. I am not sure what behavior on the margins I can change that would change the situation. My favorite games can't be played on Steam Deck. Like I said, I have been playing these games for 30 years. I am not about to change my favorite games just so I can make a point about the importance of Steam Deck compatibility. That won't change anything other than I won't be able to play my favorite games anymore. Honestly, I am happy that they have added proper PC support along with cross platform play at all. Most sports games focus almost exclusively on consoles, and most of the player base play on consoles. Before they added cross platform gameplay a few years ago, it was really hard to find games when I would try to play online. Now it is easy. The reason they are able to offer cross platform support is because of the anti-cheat. Take. for example, the NBA2k series, which I used to play a lot; the anti-cheat for PC is awful. They don't allow cross platform play because of that, so games are hard to find and every few games you play a game against a guy who is 12 feet tall and hits every 3 pointer from any spot on the court. It was so bad I stopped playing entirely. For years I settled on playing on XBOX, but i eventually got annoyed enough i stopped buying the game completely.
    - eru 1y ago
      > My favorite games can't be played on Steam Deck. Like I said, I have been playing these games for 30 years. I am not about to change my favorite games just so I can make a point about the importance of Steam Deck compatibility. That won't change anything other than I won't be able to play my favorite games anymore. Oh, I wasn't suggesting you change your favourite games or how you play them. But I was assuming you are playing more than just your three favourite games over and over again? > For years I settled on playing on XBOX, but i eventually got annoyed enough i stopped buying the game completely. This is an example where you changed your behaviour on the margin. Or another example: if one cupcake tastes massively better to you than another, you are going to buy that. But if there are two drinks that could go about equally well with your cupcake (Pepsi and Coke, say) and you are fairly indifferent between them otherwise, you'll probably going to have a look at the price or what's more convenient etc. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginalism
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
Basically. It kinda sucks. New BF6 actually seems good for once ( since Bad Company mebbe ). And Tarkov seemed to be really up my alley. But.. kernel drm. Hard pass. Unfortunately ( or fortunately depending on your individual interpretation ), it really is up to us. As for the kids? Well, I suppose they gotta get their hand burned somehow.

I just refuse to buy games that rely on kernel-level anti-cheat to work.

simlevesque 1y ago

Playing any PvP games without them isn't fun anymore.

eru 1y ago
I suspect playing any PvP game with random members of the public? Playing Streetfighter 2 with people you know should still be fun?
- cortesoft 1y ago
  As an avid gamer for 35+ years, I have played a ton of PvP both locally and online. One of those experiences can't replace the other. I am married with two young children. All of my video game time comes in the hour or two after they go to bed and before I go to bed. I don't have friends around at that time, yet I still want to get some good multiplayer gaming in. Online matchmaking is amazing these days. You are able to match up against people of about your skill level at any time of day. That experience is magical, compared to the matchmaking from 25 years ago where you would try to find a random lobby, and the players might be amazing or terrible.
  - Gigachad 1y ago
    For most online games, especially ones without chat, playing against sufficiently good bots is better than online. You don’t have to worry about cheating, connection issues, can quit mid game without issue, etc.
    - cortesoft 1y ago
      That is fine if you feel that way, but I really don't. I get much more satisfaction playing against real people. It just doesn't get my competitive juices flowing in the same way when I play against bots. There is no psychological aspect when you play against bots. I know what I like.
      - eru 1y ago
        But what if you don't know they are bots? :)
        Gigachad 1y ago
        Wasn’t that the case for a lot of the .io style games, where they just disguised bots as real players.

dijit 1y ago

I have been working in the industry now for 11 years, and this defeatism surrounding anticheat is frustrating. Especially when Epics anticheat which used to be free to use, supports linux.

Marsymars 1y ago
Is it defeatism? I don’t game on Linux and generally like Windows, but from a principle and security perspective I’d preferably check a box on Windows to disallow any kernel-level anticheat from installing, and avoid any such games.
- dijit 1y ago
  That’s fine, then those games are not available to you. I’ll be honest, no matter how unpopular it is I’m really sorry, but those kind of solutions genuinely are the only way. I’ve said it before on HN, but we really do try everything. And not having anything leads to some of the worst experiences possible. If you genuinely have a better solution, then you are more than welcome to enter the industry and make a significant amount of money. Hell, I’ll offer you a job right now.
  - ndriscoll 1y ago
    Simple solution that makes everyone happy: make it optional. Anticheat was optional in pretty much every 00s game that had it, and even in the servers that had it disabled, cheating was still rarely an issue. Diablo 2 even let you still bring your single player characters that you could obviously cheat with (which everyone knew from Diablo 1) onto Open Battle.net. Make the Internet optional like it used to be while you're at it with LAN/direct IP support so you can stick to friends only and keep your purchase forever. Oh but then you can't make all of your revenue on stuff like gambling for textures that anyone could just mod in like they used to.
    - dijit 1y ago
      Interesting thought, maybe I do this in my next game. I doubt it will show what you expect, but hey, I’ve been wrong before.

cortesoft 1y ago

I have been playing Madden and FIFA/FC for 30 years now. I love them. I love being able to play competitively against other people without having cheaters in every game. Those two desires (to play Madden and FIFA/FC and play online without cheaters) requires that I not simply refuse to buy those games.

eru 1y ago
Sure, but on the margin you can still change your behaviour. Ie for games that previously you were on the fence about, a look at whether they play or do not play well on the Steam Deck or Linux in general can push you over the fence (on way or another).
- cortesoft 1y ago
  Like I said, I have a lot of games that I love playing on the Steam Deck. I am often looking for games that run well on Steam Deck. I am not sure what behavior on the margins I can change that would change the situation. My favorite games can't be played on Steam Deck. Like I said, I have been playing these games for 30 years. I am not about to change my favorite games just so I can make a point about the importance of Steam Deck compatibility. That won't change anything other than I won't be able to play my favorite games anymore. Honestly, I am happy that they have added proper PC support along with cross platform play at all. Most sports games focus almost exclusively on consoles, and most of the player base play on consoles. Before they added cross platform gameplay a few years ago, it was really hard to find games when I would try to play online. Now it is easy. The reason they are able to offer cross platform support is because of the anti-cheat. Take. for example, the NBA2k series, which I used to play a lot; the anti-cheat for PC is awful. They don't allow cross platform play because of that, so games are hard to find and every few games you play a game against a guy who is 12 feet tall and hits every 3 pointer from any spot on the court. It was so bad I stopped playing entirely. For years I settled on playing on XBOX, but i eventually got annoyed enough i stopped buying the game completely.
  - eru 1y ago
    > My favorite games can't be played on Steam Deck. Like I said, I have been playing these games for 30 years. I am not about to change my favorite games just so I can make a point about the importance of Steam Deck compatibility. That won't change anything other than I won't be able to play my favorite games anymore. Oh, I wasn't suggesting you change your favourite games or how you play them. But I was assuming you are playing more than just your three favourite games over and over again? > For years I settled on playing on XBOX, but i eventually got annoyed enough i stopped buying the game completely. This is an example where you changed your behaviour on the margin. Or another example: if one cupcake tastes massively better to you than another, you are going to buy that. But if there are two drinks that could go about equally well with your cupcake (Pepsi and Coke, say) and you are fairly indifferent between them otherwise, you'll probably going to have a look at the price or what's more convenient etc. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginalism

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago

Basically. It kinda sucks. New BF6 actually seems good for once ( since Bad Company mebbe ). And Tarkov seemed to be really up my alley. But.. kernel drm. Hard pass. Unfortunately ( or fortunately depending on your individual interpretation ), it really is up to us. As for the kids? Well, I suppose they gotta get their hand burned somehow.