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On this, then, I would generally have a hard time agreeing. I'd be comfortable with the idea that not everyone is very resilient. I'd expect that. If the cla
by taeric 1y ago
On this, then, I would generally have a hard time agreeing. I'd be comfortable with the idea that not everyone is very resilient. I'd expect that. If the claim, then, is that there is an absurdly high variance there, I'd agree.
But I'm also growingly sympathetic to the idea that telling people they are, in fact, traumatized, is not healthy. People are, as a rule, susceptible to what they are told. Especially from authority.
- Schmerika 1y ago> People are, as a rule, susceptible to what they are told. Research shows that suggestibility is actually moderately correlated with trauma.
- Jensson 1y agoIf so then its true, telling traumatized people that they are traumatized makes it worse for them.
- paulryanrogers 1y agoCorrelation is ~not~ [actually] causation?
- Xelbair 1y agohow do you determine causation from correlation in experiment where you are unable to separate all the factors? you can't. not agreeing with one side or other - because i frankly don't know enough about it to form an opinion, but using "correlation != causation" is basically a discussion stopper.
- paulryanrogers 1y agoMy point is their claim assumes causation despite the fact that we may never be able to prove it. I.e. a strong claim with no evidence besides a correlation.
- Jensson 1y agoNobody suggested there was a causation here as that doesn't matter for what was talked about.
- Jensson 1y agoDoesn't matter, suggestibility was correlated with trauma, which means they are likely to be suggestible to becoming miserable if you tell them they are.
- Retric 1y agoThat requires someone to tell them they are miserable rather than observing them to be miserable. There’s a lot of historic terms to describe people suffering from traumatic experiences like shell shocked (WWI), soldier’s hart (US civil war), lost/bewildered (US Revolutionary War), etc going back literally thousands of years.
- Jensson 1y agoNo it doesn't, I didn't say the source of their misery was people telling them that they are, but it could make it worse. Often the best cure is for your friends and family to treat you just like normal, except maybe demand a bit less and give space.
- Retric 1y agoThat’s a common response by friends and family but it’s simply not the best cure. Often it makes things worse and can lead to suicide through feelings of alienation.
- motorest 1y ago> No it doesn't, I didn't say the source of their misery was people telling them that they are, but it could make it worse. It sounds like you're advocating for repressing traumatic experiences hoping to not cause inconveniences.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- strken 1y agoYou need to separate physical trauma from psychological trauma. There's no debate that getting hit in the head or having explosives go off nearby can cause physical brain damage. That's empirically proven (at least in animal models) and so obvious that it's hard to argue against. What I'm unclear on is the details: is physical trauma a necessary factor in shell shock as it was understood a century or more ago? Is that shell shock the same thing as the combat stress reaction and/or post-traumatic stress disorder? Is PTSD an amalgamation of two different things that aren't the same? To what extent does suggestion worsen the physical vs psychological sides of PTSD? Is suggestion the only thing that causes shell shock, the CSR, and/or PTSD in the absence of physical damage? Etc.
- sznio 1y agoNo it doesn't. In my case, that reassurance finally gave me a foundation to work on. I finally knew that it wasn't my fault. I understood thst I didn't deserve what happened. I didn't need to chastise myself for breaking down during flashbacks. For the first time in my life my emotions got a concrete basis of "Yes, that is trauma. It's fucked up. You can work on it." and not "Why are you still worrying about stuff from 20 years ago" or "Well that happens to everyone, and they don't break down like you".
- homefree 1y ago[flagged]
- plorg 1y agoI would take any scientific claims touted on HN with a grain of salt - there are plenty claims associated with overlapping orthodoxies and heterodoxies being presented all the time.
- nathan_compton 1y agoThis is such a weird thing to simply baldly assert.
- taurath 1y agoI’d posit that the people on hacker news are often very far away from even a yeoman understanding of social sciences, except in a few profitable niches like attention, personalization and motivation.
- throwaway173738 1y agoWhy does it have to be a progressive orthodoxy? Can’t it just be an orthodoxy?
- homefree 1y agoBecause that’s the group that’s captured it
- array_key_first 1y agoA lot of people are simply in denial about the world we live in. They hold strong beliefs that are based on just their own intuition, and when social sciences challenge that, they double down. And then, they refuse to listen to the actual people said topic is about. A LOT of people think they have it all figured out about homosexuals and transgender people... having never talked and listened to either. The same things act different in different circumstances.
- 1y ago
- anon373839 1y ago> But I'm also growingly sympathetic to the idea that telling people they are, in fact, traumatized, is not healthy If the message is, "you are traumatized and therefore permanently damaged", you're right - that's not healthy and also not true. But if the message is "you are traumatized and need to process your trauma", then it's more like telling someone that they have a treatable injury. I think this a pretty critical distinction that rarely gets addressed in these kinds of discussions.
- taeric 1y agoAgreed.
- crazygringo 1y agoThis 1000x. Discovering you have trauma is a kind of diagnosis, so now you can figure out the kind of professional help you need. I don't think there's really an epidemic of trauma hypochondriacs. It's not an excuse to play victim or anything. It's simply important to recognize that trauma means you're probably not going to get better on your own, and you should find help.
- greygoo222 1y ago> It's simply important to recognize that trauma means you're probably not going to get better on your own, and you should find help. There is no evidence for this, and it is exactly the harmful mindset being criticized. Developing PTSD from traumatic events is the exception, not the rule. The majority of people do get better on their own.
- taurath 1y agoThis is so frustrating because I agree with the beginning, but the statement you make after I find to be also misleading if not technically true.
- crazygringo 1y agoNo, you seem to be confused about the definition of trauma. This is important. By definition, people who undergo traumatic events do not generally get better on their own. If they get over it easily, it's not classified as trauma. Trauma is not defined by the event itself, but by the person's reaction to it. When you say the majority of people overcome trauma on their own, that is by definition false. If you have a bad reaction to an event but it goes away within a week or too, it's classified as an acute stress reaction. Not trauma.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]