4 ms·

You're extremely grumpy. Blaming the victim is not some brave, heroic concept. People can imagine what it looks like to be in physical danger, and instinct can

by RegEx 14y ago

You're extremely grumpy. Blaming the victim is not some brave, heroic concept. People can imagine what it looks like to be in physical danger, and instinct can help them avoid the situations to some degree. It's hard to imagine what it's like being in an unsafe situation on the internet.

enraged_camel 14y ago
>>Blaming the victim is not some brave, heroic concept. Blaming the victim is bad only if you believe that blame is a zero sum game. Unfortunately, it is not. If you walk down a dark alleyway in New York at night alone and get mugged, the mugger is guilty of mugging you, but you're also guilty of being a silly goose. You don't gain immunity to blame simply because you were the victim.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  How 'bout if you just moved to New York from backcountry Idaho?
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    I would say that a criminal is equally guilty if they commit a crime in a dark alley NYC or if they commit a crime in backcountry Idaho. If I replace my bicycle u-lock with a nice hefty rope and start lashing my bike to whatever object seems solid at the time (this is a concept that actually appeals to me), then I should receive some blame when my bike gets inevitably stolen. However the bicycle thief is no more nor less a thief.
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      I was talking about the guy who got mugged. What if he had never lived in the city.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        What I was trying to say is that your hypothetical does a good job of showing why blame is not zero sum. Obviously in either case the criminal receives the same blame, but I think it is fairly clear that the victim who took drastic measures to reduce risk is less to blame than the one who did not. The important thing to remember is that the blame of the victim, while present, has no relation to the blame of the criminal and should never be relevant in, for example, a criminal trial for the criminal. I really feel like I can't emphasis that enough.
        sliverstorm 14y ago
        I don't think we are talking about the same thing.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        Perhaps not. I am just trying to expand upon what enraged_camel mentioned about blame not being zero sum.
    - flyinRyan 14y ago
      No you shouldn't receive any blame. The person doing something illegal should receive the blame. You are making your life less convenient for yourself by letting your bike get stolen but you're not doing anything wrong.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  To expand on that (since I find in this topic it is necessary to be explicit), since blame is not zero-sum assigning an amount of blame to the victim should in no way be seen to reduce the blame or fault the perpetrator receives. In other words, since blame is not zero-sum, placing some blame on the victim is not a defense of the perpetrator.
- RegEx 14y ago
  You're expanding on my point exactly. The Internet does not have such an obvious dark alley. You can copy HTML/CSS, have anchors with a different href than shown, and a lot of sly things. I hate using anologies when talking to hackers, so I didn't use the alleyway example even though I was thinking it.
  - enraged_camel 14y ago
    >>You're expanding on my point exactly. The Internet does not have such an obvious dark alley. Not literally, no. But most Internet scams can actually be avoided using common sense, which dictates that if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    > The Internet does not have such an obvious dark alley. http://p3n1zp1llz.48djkhcd.com.shadyurl.info/freemoneyz.exe http://p3n1zp1llz.48djkhcd.com.shadyurl.info/freemoneyz.exe ;) Edit: Forgot about this site, but perhaps it could be used as a training tool for family members you feel are not quite as savy as they should be: http://www.shadyurl.com/ http://www.shadyurl.com/ Make a page that just says "Grandma, don't click links like that!", convert it to a "shady" url with shadyurl.com, then email it to your grandmother.
    - DanBC 14y ago
      A nice idea! But [urls are disguised so easily](http://horribleurl.example.com http://horribleurl.example.com). The A element has split the real URL from the text description since forever.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        Good point. Training family members to look at the status bar first is probably pretty hard, and probably not even effective. At the very least you would have to train them to recognize and avoid url shortening services...
- Johngibb 14y ago
  Why shouldn't you be able to walk down a dark alley in NYC at night? It's not your fault if something happens. With that attitude, we are just tolerating crime and accepting it. If more people walk around at night, the crimes will gain more exposure, be more aggressively stopped, and things will get safer.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    The individual has every right to walk down a dark alley, and the group very well may be safer if more people walk down dark alleys, but if the individual is optimizing their behavior for self-preservation (and I think that is how individuals are most likely to act, at least in the 'West') then avoiding the alley is likely the best action
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  Yea, and if you wear provocative cloths, you're asking to get raped right? Victim blaming is wrong, period. If you get mugged, you're not guilty of anything. Stop making excuses for people behaving shitty.

by RegEx 14y ago

enraged_camel 14y ago

>>Blaming the victim is not some brave, heroic concept. Blaming the victim is bad only if you believe that blame is a zero sum game. Unfortunately, it is not. If you walk down a dark alleyway in New York at night alone and get mugged, the mugger is guilty of mugging you, but you're also guilty of being a silly goose. You don't gain immunity to blame simply because you were the victim.

sliverstorm 14y ago
How 'bout if you just moved to New York from backcountry Idaho?
- jlgreco 14y ago
  I would say that a criminal is equally guilty if they commit a crime in a dark alley NYC or if they commit a crime in backcountry Idaho. If I replace my bicycle u-lock with a nice hefty rope and start lashing my bike to whatever object seems solid at the time (this is a concept that actually appeals to me), then I should receive some blame when my bike gets inevitably stolen. However the bicycle thief is no more nor less a thief.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    I was talking about the guy who got mugged. What if he had never lived in the city.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      What I was trying to say is that your hypothetical does a good job of showing why blame is not zero sum. Obviously in either case the criminal receives the same blame, but I think it is fairly clear that the victim who took drastic measures to reduce risk is less to blame than the one who did not. The important thing to remember is that the blame of the victim, while present, has no relation to the blame of the criminal and should never be relevant in, for example, a criminal trial for the criminal. I really feel like I can't emphasis that enough.
      - sliverstorm 14y ago
        I don't think we are talking about the same thing.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        Perhaps not. I am just trying to expand upon what enraged_camel mentioned about blame not being zero sum.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    No you shouldn't receive any blame. The person doing something illegal should receive the blame. You are making your life less convenient for yourself by letting your bike get stolen but you're not doing anything wrong.
jlgreco 14y ago
To expand on that (since I find in this topic it is necessary to be explicit), since blame is not zero-sum assigning an amount of blame to the victim should in no way be seen to reduce the blame or fault the perpetrator receives. In other words, since blame is not zero-sum, placing some blame on the victim is not a defense of the perpetrator.
RegEx 14y ago
You're expanding on my point exactly. The Internet does not have such an obvious dark alley. You can copy HTML/CSS, have anchors with a different href than shown, and a lot of sly things. I hate using anologies when talking to hackers, so I didn't use the alleyway example even though I was thinking it.
- enraged_camel 14y ago
  >>You're expanding on my point exactly. The Internet does not have such an obvious dark alley. Not literally, no. But most Internet scams can actually be avoided using common sense, which dictates that if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  > The Internet does not have such an obvious dark alley. http://p3n1zp1llz.48djkhcd.com.shadyurl.info/freemoneyz.exe http://p3n1zp1llz.48djkhcd.com.shadyurl.info/freemoneyz.exe ;) Edit: Forgot about this site, but perhaps it could be used as a training tool for family members you feel are not quite as savy as they should be: http://www.shadyurl.com/ http://www.shadyurl.com/ Make a page that just says "Grandma, don't click links like that!", convert it to a "shady" url with shadyurl.com, then email it to your grandmother.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    A nice idea! But [urls are disguised so easily](http://horribleurl.example.com http://horribleurl.example.com). The A element has split the real URL from the text description since forever.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Good point. Training family members to look at the status bar first is probably pretty hard, and probably not even effective. At the very least you would have to train them to recognize and avoid url shortening services...
Johngibb 14y ago
Why shouldn't you be able to walk down a dark alley in NYC at night? It's not your fault if something happens. With that attitude, we are just tolerating crime and accepting it. If more people walk around at night, the crimes will gain more exposure, be more aggressively stopped, and things will get safer.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  The individual has every right to walk down a dark alley, and the group very well may be safer if more people walk down dark alleys, but if the individual is optimizing their behavior for self-preservation (and I think that is how individuals are most likely to act, at least in the 'West') then avoiding the alley is likely the best action
flyinRyan 14y ago
Yea, and if you wear provocative cloths, you're asking to get raped right? Victim blaming is wrong, period. If you get mugged, you're not guilty of anything. Stop making excuses for people behaving shitty.