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Why? Why is it inherently desirable that society penalize companies that get hacked above and beyond people choosing not to use their services, or selling off

by akerl_ 1y ago

Why? Why is it inherently desirable that society penalize companies that get hacked above and beyond people choosing not to use their services, or selling off their shares, etc?

lenerdenator 1y ago
Because they were placed in a position of trust and failed. Typically, the failure stems from a lack of willingness to expend the resources necessary to prevent the failure. It'd be one thing if these were isolated incidents, but they're not. Furthermore, the methods you mention simply aren't effective. Our economy is now so consolidated that many markets only have a handful of participants offering goods or services, and these players often all have data and computer security issues. As for divestiture, most people don't own shares, and those who do typically don't know they own shares of a specific company. Most shareholders in the US are retirement or pension funds, and they are run by people who would rather make it impossible for the average person to bring real consequences to their holdings for data breaches, than cause the company to spend money on fixing the issues that allow for the breaches to begin with. After all, it's "cheaper".
- akerl_ 1y ago
  I feel like this kind of justification comes up every time this topic is on HN: that the reason companies aren't being organically penalized for bad IT/infosec/privacy behavior is because the average person doesn't have leverage or alternatives. It's never made sense to me. I can see that being true in specific instances: many people in the US don't have great mobility for residential ISPs, or utility companies. And there's large network effects for social media platforms. But if any significant plurality of users cared about the impact of service breaches, or bad privacy policies, surely we'd see the impact somewhere in the market? We do in some related areas: Apple puts a ton of money into marketing about keeping people's data and messages private. WhatsApp does the same. But there are so many companies out there, lots of them have garbage security practices, lots of them get compromised, and I'm struggling to remember any example of a consumer company that had a breach and saw any significant impact. To pick an example: in 2014 Home Depot had a breach of payment data. Basically everywhere that has Home Depots also has Lowes and other options that sell the same stuff. In most places, if you're pissed at Home Depot for losing your card information, you can literally drive across the street to Lowes. But it doesn't seem like that happened. Is it possible that outside of tech circles where we care about The Principle Of The Thing, the market is actually correct in its assessment of the value for the average consumer business of putting more money into security?
  - lan321 1y ago
    I think it's more simple in the Home Depot example. Even if you care about the breach what are you gonna do? Home Depot got hacked so they'll now probably get some more security staff. Funding for the quarter is secured. Lowes has not been hacked. Does that mean they won't be hacked? Not really... For cheap smart home shit it doesn't even matter since the company will go bankrupt and change hands 3 times in the next 5 years and again, they are all garbage. Either they'll get hacked or they'll sell your data anyway. Plenty of my normie friends don't want new cars for example due to all the tracking and subscription garbage, but realistically, what can you do when the old ones slowly get outlawed/impossible to maintain due to part shortages.
  - lenerdenator 1y ago
    People give up on getting companies to be good actors because ultimately they're just a single person with a job and maybe a small savings account, looking at suing a company with absolutely no guarantee of ever recovering a cent on all of the trouble that their lax security policies cost them. Oh, and litigation is a rich man's sport. > To pick an example: in 2014 Home Depot had a breach of payment data. Basically everywhere that has Home Depots also has Lowes and other options that sell the same stuff. In most places, if you're pissed at Home Depot for losing your card information, you can literally drive across the street to Lowes. But it doesn't seem like that happened. No one considers these things when they're buying plumbing tape. Really, you shouldn't have to consider that. You should be able to do commerce without having to wonder if some guy on the other side of the transaction is going to get his yearly bonus by cutting the necessary resources to keep you from having to deal with identity theft. > Is it possible that outside of tech circles where we care about The Principle Of The Thing, the market is actually correct in its assessment of the value for the average consumer business of putting more money into security? Let's try with a company that has your data and see how correct "the market" is. Principles are the things you build a functioning society upon, not quarterly returns.
    - akerl_ 1y ago
      > Let's try with a company that has your data and see how correct "the market" is. What do you mean? Tons of companies with my data have been breached.

by akerl_ 1y ago

Why? Why is it inherently desirable that society penalize companies that get hacked above and beyond people choosing not to use their services, or selling off their shares, etc?

lenerdenator 1y ago

Because they were placed in a position of trust and failed. Typically, the failure stems from a lack of willingness to expend the resources necessary to prevent the failure. It'd be one thing if these were isolated incidents, but they're not. Furthermore, the methods you mention simply aren't effective. Our economy is now so consolidated that many markets only have a handful of participants offering goods or services, and these players often all have data and computer security issues. As for divestiture, most people don't own shares, and those who do typically don't know they own shares of a specific company. Most shareholders in the US are retirement or pension funds, and they are run by people who would rather make it impossible for the average person to bring real consequences to their holdings for data breaches, than cause the company to spend money on fixing the issues that allow for the breaches to begin with. After all, it's "cheaper".

akerl_ 1y ago
I feel like this kind of justification comes up every time this topic is on HN: that the reason companies aren't being organically penalized for bad IT/infosec/privacy behavior is because the average person doesn't have leverage or alternatives. It's never made sense to me. I can see that being true in specific instances: many people in the US don't have great mobility for residential ISPs, or utility companies. And there's large network effects for social media platforms. But if any significant plurality of users cared about the impact of service breaches, or bad privacy policies, surely we'd see the impact somewhere in the market? We do in some related areas: Apple puts a ton of money into marketing about keeping people's data and messages private. WhatsApp does the same. But there are so many companies out there, lots of them have garbage security practices, lots of them get compromised, and I'm struggling to remember any example of a consumer company that had a breach and saw any significant impact. To pick an example: in 2014 Home Depot had a breach of payment data. Basically everywhere that has Home Depots also has Lowes and other options that sell the same stuff. In most places, if you're pissed at Home Depot for losing your card information, you can literally drive across the street to Lowes. But it doesn't seem like that happened. Is it possible that outside of tech circles where we care about The Principle Of The Thing, the market is actually correct in its assessment of the value for the average consumer business of putting more money into security?
- lan321 1y ago
  I think it's more simple in the Home Depot example. Even if you care about the breach what are you gonna do? Home Depot got hacked so they'll now probably get some more security staff. Funding for the quarter is secured. Lowes has not been hacked. Does that mean they won't be hacked? Not really... For cheap smart home shit it doesn't even matter since the company will go bankrupt and change hands 3 times in the next 5 years and again, they are all garbage. Either they'll get hacked or they'll sell your data anyway. Plenty of my normie friends don't want new cars for example due to all the tracking and subscription garbage, but realistically, what can you do when the old ones slowly get outlawed/impossible to maintain due to part shortages.
- lenerdenator 1y ago
  People give up on getting companies to be good actors because ultimately they're just a single person with a job and maybe a small savings account, looking at suing a company with absolutely no guarantee of ever recovering a cent on all of the trouble that their lax security policies cost them. Oh, and litigation is a rich man's sport. > To pick an example: in 2014 Home Depot had a breach of payment data. Basically everywhere that has Home Depots also has Lowes and other options that sell the same stuff. In most places, if you're pissed at Home Depot for losing your card information, you can literally drive across the street to Lowes. But it doesn't seem like that happened. No one considers these things when they're buying plumbing tape. Really, you shouldn't have to consider that. You should be able to do commerce without having to wonder if some guy on the other side of the transaction is going to get his yearly bonus by cutting the necessary resources to keep you from having to deal with identity theft. > Is it possible that outside of tech circles where we care about The Principle Of The Thing, the market is actually correct in its assessment of the value for the average consumer business of putting more money into security? Let's try with a company that has your data and see how correct "the market" is. Principles are the things you build a functioning society upon, not quarterly returns.
  - akerl_ 1y ago
    > Let's try with a company that has your data and see how correct "the market" is. What do you mean? Tons of companies with my data have been breached.