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The biggest problem with that citation isn't that the article has since been deleted. The biggest problem is that that particular Wikipedia article was never a

The biggest problem with that citation isn't that the article has since been deleted. The biggest problem is that that particular Wikipedia article was never a good source in the first place. That seems to be the real challenge with AI for this use case. It has no real critical thinking skills, so it's not really competent to choose reliable sources. So instead we're lowering the bar to just asking that the sources actually exist. I really hate that. We shouldn't be lowering intellectual standards to meet AI where it's at. These intellectual standards are important and hard-won, and we need to be demanding that AI be the one to rise to meet them.

gamerDude 1y ago
I think this is a real challenge for everyone. In many ways potentially we need a restart of a wikipedia like site to document all the valid and good sources. This would also hopefully include things like source bias and whether it's a primary/secondary/tertiary source.
- fullofideas 1y ago
  This is pushing the burden of proof on the society. Basically, asking everyone else to pitch in and improve sources so that ai companies can reference these trust worthy sources.
- bunderbunder 1y ago
  Outsourcing due diligence to a tool (or a single unified source) is the problem, not the solution. For example, having a single central arbiter of source bias is inescapably the most biased thing you could possibly do. Bias has to be defined within an intellectual paradigm. So you'd have to choose a paradigm to use for that bias evaluation, and de facto declare it to be the one true paradigm for this purpose. But intellectual paradigms are inherently subjective, so doing that is pretty much the most intellectually biased thing you can possibly do.
- ishtanbul 1y ago
  Maybe we can get AI to do this hard labor
- dingnuts 1y ago
  I noticed that my local library has a new set of World Book. Maybe it's time to bring back traditional encyclopedias.
- cogman10 1y ago
  An example of this. I've seen a certain sensationalist news source write a story that went like this. Site A: Bad thing is happening, cite: article Site B * follow the source * Site B: Bad thing is happening, cite different article on Site A * follow the source * Site A: Bad thing is happening, no citation. I fear that's the current state of a large news bubble that many people subscribe to. And when these sensationalist stories start circulating there's a natural human tendency to exaggerate. I don't think AI has any sort of real good defense to this sort of thing. 1 level of citation is already hard enough. Recognizing that it is citing the same source is hard enough. There was another example from the Kagi news stuff which exemplified this. A whole article written which made 3 citations that were ultimately spawned from the same new briefing published by different outlets. I've even seen an example of a national political leader who fell for the same sort of sensationalization. One who should have known better. They repeated what was later found to be a lie by a well-known liar but added that "I've seen the photos in a classified debriefing". IDK that it was necessarily even malicious, I think people are just really bad at separating credible from uncredible information and that it ultimately blends together as one thing (certainly doesn't help with ancient politicians).
kenjackson 1y ago
I get what your saying. But you are now asking for a level of intelligence and critical thinking that I honestly believe is higher than the average person. I think its absolutely doable, but I also feel like we shouldn't make it sound like the current behavior is abhorrent or somehow indicative of a failure in the technology.
- exe34 1y ago
  It's actually great from my point of view - it means we're edging our way into limited superintelligence.
- Paracompact 1y ago
  The bar for an industry should be the good-faith effort of the average industry professional, not the unconscionably minimal efforts of the average grifter trying to farm content. These grifters simply were not attracted to these gigs in these quantities prior to AI, but now the market incentives have changed. Should we "blame" the technology for its abuse? I think AI is incredible, but market endorsement is different from intellectual admiration.

gamerDude 1y ago

I think this is a real challenge for everyone. In many ways potentially we need a restart of a wikipedia like site to document all the valid and good sources. This would also hopefully include things like source bias and whether it's a primary/secondary/tertiary source.

fullofideas 1y ago
This is pushing the burden of proof on the society. Basically, asking everyone else to pitch in and improve sources so that ai companies can reference these trust worthy sources.
bunderbunder 1y ago
Outsourcing due diligence to a tool (or a single unified source) is the problem, not the solution. For example, having a single central arbiter of source bias is inescapably the most biased thing you could possibly do. Bias has to be defined within an intellectual paradigm. So you'd have to choose a paradigm to use for that bias evaluation, and de facto declare it to be the one true paradigm for this purpose. But intellectual paradigms are inherently subjective, so doing that is pretty much the most intellectually biased thing you can possibly do.
ishtanbul 1y ago
Maybe we can get AI to do this hard labor
dingnuts 1y ago
I noticed that my local library has a new set of World Book. Maybe it's time to bring back traditional encyclopedias.
cogman10 1y ago
An example of this. I've seen a certain sensationalist news source write a story that went like this. Site A: Bad thing is happening, cite: article Site B * follow the source * Site B: Bad thing is happening, cite different article on Site A * follow the source * Site A: Bad thing is happening, no citation. I fear that's the current state of a large news bubble that many people subscribe to. And when these sensationalist stories start circulating there's a natural human tendency to exaggerate. I don't think AI has any sort of real good defense to this sort of thing. 1 level of citation is already hard enough. Recognizing that it is citing the same source is hard enough. There was another example from the Kagi news stuff which exemplified this. A whole article written which made 3 citations that were ultimately spawned from the same new briefing published by different outlets. I've even seen an example of a national political leader who fell for the same sort of sensationalization. One who should have known better. They repeated what was later found to be a lie by a well-known liar but added that "I've seen the photos in a classified debriefing". IDK that it was necessarily even malicious, I think people are just really bad at separating credible from uncredible information and that it ultimately blends together as one thing (certainly doesn't help with ancient politicians).

kenjackson 1y ago

I get what your saying. But you are now asking for a level of intelligence and critical thinking that I honestly believe is higher than the average person. I think its absolutely doable, but I also feel like we shouldn't make it sound like the current behavior is abhorrent or somehow indicative of a failure in the technology.

exe34 1y ago
It's actually great from my point of view - it means we're edging our way into limited superintelligence.
Paracompact 1y ago
The bar for an industry should be the good-faith effort of the average industry professional, not the unconscionably minimal efforts of the average grifter trying to farm content. These grifters simply were not attracted to these gigs in these quantities prior to AI, but now the market incentives have changed. Should we "blame" the technology for its abuse? I think AI is incredible, but market endorsement is different from intellectual admiration.