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I agree, the dark forest argument seems rooted in a kind of paranoia bordering on the insane. No sane culture says “we better just exterminate anyone else we co

I agree, the dark forest argument seems rooted in a kind of paranoia bordering on the insane. No sane culture says “we better just exterminate anyone else we come across just in case,” which is essentially the threat that the dark forest is guarding against. And a culture that does act that way is likely to end up exterminating itself.

stickfigure 1y ago
And yet we see nations like Russia (well, leaders like Putin) acting as if the world is a zero-sum game. The war in Ukraine vaguely looks like the Borg trying to assimilate every resource (geographical or human) in sight. China (well, Xi) seems to be eyeing a similar path. I feel like there's something worth noting about the Three Body Problem being a product of its culture.
- badosu 1y ago
  I really have a hard time understanding this train of thought. One could say these sentences are also a product of "its culture". The world is not black or white, good or evil. Things are more nuanced and complicated than advertised to be. I'm not the single source of truth either, but I think there are lots of resources for people interested in avoiding propaganda and trying to understand things more deeply.
  - stickfigure 1y ago
    Sometimes the bully just wants your lunch money.
    - badosu 1y ago
      Maybe, but at least I believe there's plenty historical evidence for a different interpretation than: "russia and china big bad, their values are wrong/not aligned with the west"
      - stickfigure 1y ago
        The only values that matter from a moral principle are the values of the people living in Ukraine and Taiwan.
      - int_19h 1y ago
        I can't speak for China, but when it comes to Russia, take it from a citizen: yes, it is that bad, and the reason is that it's an empire that can't stop being an empire without falling apart (much like Ottoman Empire -> Turkey did).
poncho_romero 1y ago
The reason for the paranoia is that the risks are maximal. Any planet can destroy any other planet by accelerating a small projectile at it, so long as it achieves sufficient kinetic force. The projectile can be so tiny as to be effectively undetectable until it’s too late. So you have a situation where everyone you meet is carrying WMDs, and you can’t guarantee you’ll be able to get revenge if they fire first. Finally, every actor knows the predicament and nothing else about the other actors. If you don’t know who is on the other side of the radio transmission, but you do know they can destroy you immediately and without consequence, and you know they know you can do the same to them, the only rational choice is to shoot first, because you’d better not shoot second!
- Balgair 1y ago
  But the reverse it true too. You can't be sure you got every one of the other species. Especially with the transmission times at light speed. In the books, they use these dimension collapsing bombs to eradicate everything, but, um, those don't actually exist. Even in the books, humanity still survives in little groups, some bent on vengeance. Much safer to make friends or coinvestors, slaves at the very least. Get them all to buy in and police themselves. Better yet, you take that one rare thing, life, intelligence, and put it to work for you. Make the aliens you've just contacted be a part of the pyramid scheme
  - Nevermark 1y ago
    > slaves at the very least If you think that's a relevant upside, then some of them think so too. Well we better just start shooting up all the exoplanets as soon as we can. Not take any chances.
  - freefrog1234 1y ago
    I didn't consider dimension collapsing bombs realistic either. It is the objects sped up to a fraction of light speed which were more scary. The cylons carpet bombed the planet with nuclear bombs which was plausible.
    - 1y ago
vee-kay 1y ago
Read up on colonial history. The stronger civilizations have always exterminated or exploited & subsumed the weaker civilizations.
- int_19h 1y ago
  At best that tells you that humans are like that for the past 10k years or so, which is a blip even in our own species' history, never mind some more advanced aliens.

stickfigure 1y ago

And yet we see nations like Russia (well, leaders like Putin) acting as if the world is a zero-sum game. The war in Ukraine vaguely looks like the Borg trying to assimilate every resource (geographical or human) in sight. China (well, Xi) seems to be eyeing a similar path. I feel like there's something worth noting about the Three Body Problem being a product of its culture.

badosu 1y ago
I really have a hard time understanding this train of thought. One could say these sentences are also a product of "its culture". The world is not black or white, good or evil. Things are more nuanced and complicated than advertised to be. I'm not the single source of truth either, but I think there are lots of resources for people interested in avoiding propaganda and trying to understand things more deeply.
- stickfigure 1y ago
  Sometimes the bully just wants your lunch money.
  - badosu 1y ago
    Maybe, but at least I believe there's plenty historical evidence for a different interpretation than: "russia and china big bad, their values are wrong/not aligned with the west"
    - stickfigure 1y ago
      The only values that matter from a moral principle are the values of the people living in Ukraine and Taiwan.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      I can't speak for China, but when it comes to Russia, take it from a citizen: yes, it is that bad, and the reason is that it's an empire that can't stop being an empire without falling apart (much like Ottoman Empire -> Turkey did).

poncho_romero 1y ago

The reason for the paranoia is that the risks are maximal. Any planet can destroy any other planet by accelerating a small projectile at it, so long as it achieves sufficient kinetic force. The projectile can be so tiny as to be effectively undetectable until it’s too late. So you have a situation where everyone you meet is carrying WMDs, and you can’t guarantee you’ll be able to get revenge if they fire first. Finally, every actor knows the predicament and nothing else about the other actors. If you don’t know who is on the other side of the radio transmission, but you do know they can destroy you immediately and without consequence, and you know they know you can do the same to them, the only rational choice is to shoot first, because you’d better not shoot second!

Balgair 1y ago
But the reverse it true too. You can't be sure you got every one of the other species. Especially with the transmission times at light speed. In the books, they use these dimension collapsing bombs to eradicate everything, but, um, those don't actually exist. Even in the books, humanity still survives in little groups, some bent on vengeance. Much safer to make friends or coinvestors, slaves at the very least. Get them all to buy in and police themselves. Better yet, you take that one rare thing, life, intelligence, and put it to work for you. Make the aliens you've just contacted be a part of the pyramid scheme
- Nevermark 1y ago
  > slaves at the very least If you think that's a relevant upside, then some of them think so too. Well we better just start shooting up all the exoplanets as soon as we can. Not take any chances.
- freefrog1234 1y ago
  I didn't consider dimension collapsing bombs realistic either. It is the objects sped up to a fraction of light speed which were more scary. The cylons carpet bombed the planet with nuclear bombs which was plausible.
  - 1y ago

vee-kay 1y ago

Read up on colonial history. The stronger civilizations have always exterminated or exploited & subsumed the weaker civilizations.

int_19h 1y ago
At best that tells you that humans are like that for the past 10k years or so, which is a blip even in our own species' history, never mind some more advanced aliens.