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former chairman of the board of the SETI Institute John Gertz: 'In fact, the author has heard from serious U.S. SETI researchers that they are convinced that “

former chairman of the board of the SETI Institute John Gertz: 'In fact, the author has heard from serious U.S. SETI researchers that they are convinced that “men in black suits” will appear at their laboratory door the moment a detection is confirmed.' Source: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.08422 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.08422

psunavy03 1y ago
And yet no one is ever able to describe what agency or jurisdiction these "men in black suits" will work for. This basically is just demonstrating how people very very good in their field can still fail Civics 101. Men In Black were some funny movies back in the day, but they were just movies.
- ricksunny 1y ago
  I see the speak-first,research-never is strong with this one. —- https://www.public.news/p/pentagon-is-illegally-hiding-secret https://www.public.news/p/pentagon-is-illegally-hiding-secre...
- tbrownaw 1y ago
  Well obviously they'd be employed by the oil companies to suppress knowledge of advanced energy sources.
- protocolture 1y ago
  The "Men in Black" thing predates the comedy films and the comics they were based on. They are (true or not) a persistent element in UFO abduction stories. "The term is generic, as it is used for any unusual, threatening or strangely behaved individual whose appearance on the scene can be linked in some fashion with a UFO sighting." Some stories dont even posit them as being from the government, just designed to give that impression. Some reckon alien hybrids. Even in the MiB films they were separate and just controlled the government largely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_black https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_black Its a general fear of government intervention. If you are asking on what legal basis this fear is founded. I don't think there needs to be one. Lots of governments do illegal stuff. Suits are the classic G man look. They dont need "Jurisdiction" to dress in a suit and harass SETI.
  - ricksunny 1y ago
    That’s all well-put. (btw First alleged MiB incident is the Maury Island 1947 one, which was abduction-free). So, that most SETI of all SETI people, Carl Sagan posed the role of the security apparatus in Contact, in the form of NSC head Michael Kitz. The film version gace superficial treatment - Kitz locks down message data, and at the end repudiates Arroway’s visit. In his book version, however, the state apparatus is much more insidious. The astronauts (plural, multiple countries rep’d) are threatened with having their psychological reputations destroyed if they ever utter a word that their encounter ever actually took place, or contravene the governments’ (plural) line that the intended journey had failed. Arroway takes extraordinary measures to make sure her hidden testimony will get out ‘should anything happen to her’. Sagan had a security clearance. One is left with the impression that maybe he wasn’t just making up conflict for dramatic reasons.
    - psunavy03 1y ago
      I held a security clearance for 20+ years, and I am not in violation of my NDA to merely observe that government secrets tend to be a lot more mundane than conspiracy theorists often want them to be. Sometimes some really cool engineering is involved, but still. The laws of physics are what they are, and governments keep things secret to avoid giving their playbooks and sources of information away to adversaries, not because they've re-discovered magic.
      - protocolture 1y ago
        >I held a security clearance for 20+ years, and I am not in violation of my NDA to merely observe that government secrets tend to be a lot more mundane than conspiracy theorists often want them to be. Government secrets can be super mundane and still angering the wrong people can lead to abuse. IIRC Brian Toohey "leaked" information that was on the public record in the USA. The Australian government still pursued him over it. IIRC the claimed harassment campaign has strong overlaps with Men In Black shenanigans.
  - psunavy03 1y ago
    Pedantically debating who "Men in Black" are is not the point. My point is they don't actually exist and someone's irrational fear of them should be viewed as what it is: an irrational fear.
johncolanduoni 1y ago
This seems like romanticizing. I don’t get the impression that maintaining a constant watch on SETI researchers is something any intelligence agency is incentivized to do.
- ricksunny 1y ago
  As it sounds like you know, it would be great if you can articulate the boundaries of a prototypical intelligence agency mandate. Because then it should be a cinch to describe why ‘communication from a foreign power of as-yet indeterminate technology advancment relative to modern day superpowers to (checks notes) members of any of the 200 some odd nation-states on the planet who can afford operating a radio telescope’ doesn’t fall within that mandate
  - tbrownaw 1y ago
    I'd expect them to monitor SETI to intercept any first contacts the same amount as they monitor Miss Cleo to make sure her crystal ball isn't showing state secrets.
  - johncolanduoni 1y ago
    Sure, right after they write up plans for a color revolution in Atlantis. You’re assuming that intelligence agencies/governments believe that contact with aliens is likely enough to actively plan for, which seems unlikely.
  - psunavy03 1y ago
    The remit of an intelligence agency is to collect information on foreign entities which have first been proven to exist. The CIA almost certainly isn't trying to recruit agents in the Seelie Court either.

psunavy03 1y ago

And yet no one is ever able to describe what agency or jurisdiction these "men in black suits" will work for. This basically is just demonstrating how people very very good in their field can still fail Civics 101. Men In Black were some funny movies back in the day, but they were just movies.

ricksunny 1y ago
I see the speak-first,research-never is strong with this one. —- https://www.public.news/p/pentagon-is-illegally-hiding-secret https://www.public.news/p/pentagon-is-illegally-hiding-secre...
tbrownaw 1y ago
Well obviously they'd be employed by the oil companies to suppress knowledge of advanced energy sources.
protocolture 1y ago
The "Men in Black" thing predates the comedy films and the comics they were based on. They are (true or not) a persistent element in UFO abduction stories. "The term is generic, as it is used for any unusual, threatening or strangely behaved individual whose appearance on the scene can be linked in some fashion with a UFO sighting." Some stories dont even posit them as being from the government, just designed to give that impression. Some reckon alien hybrids. Even in the MiB films they were separate and just controlled the government largely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_black https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_black Its a general fear of government intervention. If you are asking on what legal basis this fear is founded. I don't think there needs to be one. Lots of governments do illegal stuff. Suits are the classic G man look. They dont need "Jurisdiction" to dress in a suit and harass SETI.
- ricksunny 1y ago
  That’s all well-put. (btw First alleged MiB incident is the Maury Island 1947 one, which was abduction-free). So, that most SETI of all SETI people, Carl Sagan posed the role of the security apparatus in Contact, in the form of NSC head Michael Kitz. The film version gace superficial treatment - Kitz locks down message data, and at the end repudiates Arroway’s visit. In his book version, however, the state apparatus is much more insidious. The astronauts (plural, multiple countries rep’d) are threatened with having their psychological reputations destroyed if they ever utter a word that their encounter ever actually took place, or contravene the governments’ (plural) line that the intended journey had failed. Arroway takes extraordinary measures to make sure her hidden testimony will get out ‘should anything happen to her’. Sagan had a security clearance. One is left with the impression that maybe he wasn’t just making up conflict for dramatic reasons.
  - psunavy03 1y ago
    I held a security clearance for 20+ years, and I am not in violation of my NDA to merely observe that government secrets tend to be a lot more mundane than conspiracy theorists often want them to be. Sometimes some really cool engineering is involved, but still. The laws of physics are what they are, and governments keep things secret to avoid giving their playbooks and sources of information away to adversaries, not because they've re-discovered magic.
    - protocolture 1y ago
      >I held a security clearance for 20+ years, and I am not in violation of my NDA to merely observe that government secrets tend to be a lot more mundane than conspiracy theorists often want them to be. Government secrets can be super mundane and still angering the wrong people can lead to abuse. IIRC Brian Toohey "leaked" information that was on the public record in the USA. The Australian government still pursued him over it. IIRC the claimed harassment campaign has strong overlaps with Men In Black shenanigans.
- psunavy03 1y ago
  Pedantically debating who "Men in Black" are is not the point. My point is they don't actually exist and someone's irrational fear of them should be viewed as what it is: an irrational fear.

johncolanduoni 1y ago

This seems like romanticizing. I don’t get the impression that maintaining a constant watch on SETI researchers is something any intelligence agency is incentivized to do.

ricksunny 1y ago
As it sounds like you know, it would be great if you can articulate the boundaries of a prototypical intelligence agency mandate. Because then it should be a cinch to describe why ‘communication from a foreign power of as-yet indeterminate technology advancment relative to modern day superpowers to (checks notes) members of any of the 200 some odd nation-states on the planet who can afford operating a radio telescope’ doesn’t fall within that mandate
- tbrownaw 1y ago
  I'd expect them to monitor SETI to intercept any first contacts the same amount as they monitor Miss Cleo to make sure her crystal ball isn't showing state secrets.
- johncolanduoni 1y ago
  Sure, right after they write up plans for a color revolution in Atlantis. You’re assuming that intelligence agencies/governments believe that contact with aliens is likely enough to actively plan for, which seems unlikely.
- psunavy03 1y ago
  The remit of an intelligence agency is to collect information on foreign entities which have first been proven to exist. The CIA almost certainly isn't trying to recruit agents in the Seelie Court either.