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>It would add up to a lot of money for Tesla, but for customers? Some of these people paid $15.000 years ago for something that hasn’t been delivered, and now,

>It would add up to a lot of money for Tesla, but for customers? Some of these people paid $15.000 years ago for something that hasn’t been delivered, and now, they would be able to get $10,000 ‘back’, only if they commit to spending way more again, in the hope to eventually get what they bought years ago, or, more likely, in the hope of eventually being able to subscribe to get the features they already paid for years ago. Sounds like fraud. Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? The guy can't help himself but lie and make deliberately misleading half-truth (at best) statements in investor meetings and presentations. Textbook fraud. An ethical steward of capital he is not. We've gone through 4+ US presidential administrations with him as the CEO, and not once has he been effectively taken to task let alone held accountable for his bullshit.

code_for_monkey 1y ago
America is run by sham companies with con man ceos. Look at the president! He is one. The federal government does the kind of crypto pump and dumps you'd expect to see being run on snapchat. Of course no one is holding Musk's feet to the fire.
- lern_too_spel 1y ago
  It's not a pump and dump. It's a one-time sell-off of Trump Coins sold by the various Trump-affiliates organizations to companies in China that wanted to be excluded from tariffs and regulations and individuals who wanted to get Trump's ear at a dinner. It's a bribe. The secondary market value of the coins is exactly 0 because that money isn't going to Trump.
danans 1y ago
> Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? The guy can't help himself but lie and make deliberately misleading half-truth (at best) statements in investor meetings and presentations. Perhaps you just answered your own question. But are you sure he's the only big tech CEO who does it, or does he just do it the best?
- igor47 1y ago
  It doesn't matter is he's the only one. He's the one we're talking about right now. Comments like yours read to me as "well everyone is doing it" and I really don't like how this serves to normalize bad action. Trump makes this rhetorical move all the time to justify his own corruption.
  - danans 1y ago
    > Comments like yours read to me as "well everyone is doing it" You are reading the literal meaning right: everyone is doing it. But you are reading the intent wrong, which is to point out the extent of fraud and deception in boardrooms and markets.
    - judahmeek 1y ago
      Definitely sounds like you're normalizing this kind of behavior.
      - danans 1y ago
        You can interpret my intent however you like, but I find that "kind of behavior" abhorrent and a reflection of broader societal problems.
        judahmeek 1y ago
        Fair enough. Your reply of "everyone is doing it" definitely could a logical answer to the question of "Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again?" instead of just a moral justification. I would agree that Tesla's stock price is as high as it is because investors are betting that there are plenty of other suckers who will be convinced by Musk's unfounded claims.
immibis 1y ago
Because it's about, and always has been about, and always will be about, power and personal connection, not following the rules. Following the rules is one avenue to power - if the rules are enforced as written. But there are others, like bribing whoever is meant to enforce the rules and then breaking them. Another is to abuse rules, like setting up a string of companies that go bankrupt like crumple zones.
sporkxrocket 1y ago
We created Sarbanes-Oxley after Enron and made it very difficult to go IPO, yet somehow TSLA is allowed to engage in blatant and obvious fraud. Musk lies in every shareholder meeting and is rewarded with hundreds of billions of dollars. I can't think of another case of financial fraud at this scale that is allowed to go completely unchecked.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? Because he founded a company that turned into PayPal, single-handedly launched the Western EV revolution and single-handedly secured American access to space. He's been a fuckup for the last few years. But he's "allowed" to be worth a lot because if he were doing what he's doing elsewhere, he'd facilitate a multi-trillion dollar wealth transfer from America to that place.
- suckler 1y ago
  Paypal kicked Musk out for being annoying and useless and wanting to implement bad ideas. He bought Tesla after it already put out its fan-favorite car. To say he contributed anything is questionable, and to say anything he has done is revolutionary is laughable.
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    Repeated success along multiple businesses is an objective measure. There is a chance he lucked into paypal, tesla, spaceX, and starlink, but it seems reasonable to assume he is contributing (and detracting simultaneously) something to score 4 successess, even if that is just hiring the right people and making big bets. These are also hard businesses, dealing with physics, chemistry, and regulations. Unlike SaaS businesses one spins up on cloud services. Which lends some more credence to not just being lucky. Obviously, he has a reprehensible agenda, but there is clearly a case to be made about his ability to execute.
  - pas 1y ago
    this is a bad framing. he did put in a lot of work, he did mercilessly churn through engineers to get results, cajoled various power-brokers to get subsidies and financing necessary to keep on keeping on. he is the ultimate right place right time person, managed to turn innovative historically doomed-to-fail ventures into very highly valued mature(ish) businesses. it's unlikely that someone without his micromanagerial madness could have done these. (and of course in a better world he would have gotten help, employees wouldn't have been fired on a whim, and the market wouldn't reward liars. not to mention that ideally the market would price in the consequences of enriching someone with so loose morals.)
rapnie 1y ago
Saw a youtube video about the "grand achievements" of the Boring company in Las Vegas. If it were smell video, this project would smell like fraud.
danaris 1y ago
> Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? Because the US abandoned a number of years ago the idea that the law should apply equally to everyone. At least since the Reagan years, and to an increasing degree recently, "Greed is Good" has become the economic motto, and net worth is treated as if it's synonymous with one's moral worth. This is all part and parcel of the devaluation of ethics that has led to a corrupt president whose election has serious questions around it wantonly flouting the law and treating the country like his own personal playground.
ModernMech 1y ago
> Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? ... An ethical steward of capital he is not. You answered your question! Capitalism does not optimize for ethical stewards, and has nothing at all to say about morality or ethics. If a scam is profitable, capitalism says "that's okay!". Doesn't matter if it's illegal, immoral, amoral, destroys the environment, or even decapitates people leaving their head bouncing down the highway. That's why Elon Musk is allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars. The system optimized for it; fraud, deception, and lawbreaking is a competitive advantage under capitalism. Someone has to be worth the most, and under this system, that person is going to be whomever is the most eager to wield his considerable wealth and power to commit crimes and defraud people.

code_for_monkey 1y ago

America is run by sham companies with con man ceos. Look at the president! He is one. The federal government does the kind of crypto pump and dumps you'd expect to see being run on snapchat. Of course no one is holding Musk's feet to the fire.

lern_too_spel 1y ago
It's not a pump and dump. It's a one-time sell-off of Trump Coins sold by the various Trump-affiliates organizations to companies in China that wanted to be excluded from tariffs and regulations and individuals who wanted to get Trump's ear at a dinner. It's a bribe. The secondary market value of the coins is exactly 0 because that money isn't going to Trump.

danans 1y ago

> Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? The guy can't help himself but lie and make deliberately misleading half-truth (at best) statements in investor meetings and presentations. Perhaps you just answered your own question. But are you sure he's the only big tech CEO who does it, or does he just do it the best?

igor47 1y ago
It doesn't matter is he's the only one. He's the one we're talking about right now. Comments like yours read to me as "well everyone is doing it" and I really don't like how this serves to normalize bad action. Trump makes this rhetorical move all the time to justify his own corruption.
- danans 1y ago
  > Comments like yours read to me as "well everyone is doing it" You are reading the literal meaning right: everyone is doing it. But you are reading the intent wrong, which is to point out the extent of fraud and deception in boardrooms and markets.
  - judahmeek 1y ago
    Definitely sounds like you're normalizing this kind of behavior.
    - danans 1y ago
      You can interpret my intent however you like, but I find that "kind of behavior" abhorrent and a reflection of broader societal problems.
      - judahmeek 1y ago
        Fair enough. Your reply of "everyone is doing it" definitely could a logical answer to the question of "Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again?" instead of just a moral justification. I would agree that Tesla's stock price is as high as it is because investors are betting that there are plenty of other suckers who will be convinced by Musk's unfounded claims.

immibis 1y ago

Because it's about, and always has been about, and always will be about, power and personal connection, not following the rules. Following the rules is one avenue to power - if the rules are enforced as written. But there are others, like bribing whoever is meant to enforce the rules and then breaking them. Another is to abuse rules, like setting up a string of companies that go bankrupt like crumple zones.

sporkxrocket 1y ago

We created Sarbanes-Oxley after Enron and made it very difficult to go IPO, yet somehow TSLA is allowed to engage in blatant and obvious fraud. Musk lies in every shareholder meeting and is rewarded with hundreds of billions of dollars. I can't think of another case of financial fraud at this scale that is allowed to go completely unchecked.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? Because he founded a company that turned into PayPal, single-handedly launched the Western EV revolution and single-handedly secured American access to space. He's been a fuckup for the last few years. But he's "allowed" to be worth a lot because if he were doing what he's doing elsewhere, he'd facilitate a multi-trillion dollar wealth transfer from America to that place.

suckler 1y ago
Paypal kicked Musk out for being annoying and useless and wanting to implement bad ideas. He bought Tesla after it already put out its fan-favorite car. To say he contributed anything is questionable, and to say anything he has done is revolutionary is laughable.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  Repeated success along multiple businesses is an objective measure. There is a chance he lucked into paypal, tesla, spaceX, and starlink, but it seems reasonable to assume he is contributing (and detracting simultaneously) something to score 4 successess, even if that is just hiring the right people and making big bets. These are also hard businesses, dealing with physics, chemistry, and regulations. Unlike SaaS businesses one spins up on cloud services. Which lends some more credence to not just being lucky. Obviously, he has a reprehensible agenda, but there is clearly a case to be made about his ability to execute.
- pas 1y ago
  this is a bad framing. he did put in a lot of work, he did mercilessly churn through engineers to get results, cajoled various power-brokers to get subsidies and financing necessary to keep on keeping on. he is the ultimate right place right time person, managed to turn innovative historically doomed-to-fail ventures into very highly valued mature(ish) businesses. it's unlikely that someone without his micromanagerial madness could have done these. (and of course in a better world he would have gotten help, employees wouldn't have been fired on a whim, and the market wouldn't reward liars. not to mention that ideally the market would price in the consequences of enriching someone with so loose morals.)

rapnie 1y ago

Saw a youtube video about the "grand achievements" of the Boring company in Las Vegas. If it were smell video, this project would smell like fraud.

danaris 1y ago

> Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? Because the US abandoned a number of years ago the idea that the law should apply equally to everyone. At least since the Reagan years, and to an increasing degree recently, "Greed is Good" has become the economic motto, and net worth is treated as if it's synonymous with one's moral worth. This is all part and parcel of the devaluation of ethics that has led to a corrupt president whose election has serious questions around it wantonly flouting the law and treating the country like his own personal playground.

ModernMech 1y ago

> Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? ... An ethical steward of capital he is not. You answered your question! Capitalism does not optimize for ethical stewards, and has nothing at all to say about morality or ethics. If a scam is profitable, capitalism says "that's okay!". Doesn't matter if it's illegal, immoral, amoral, destroys the environment, or even decapitates people leaving their head bouncing down the highway. That's why Elon Musk is allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars. The system optimized for it; fraud, deception, and lawbreaking is a competitive advantage under capitalism. Someone has to be worth the most, and under this system, that person is going to be whomever is the most eager to wield his considerable wealth and power to commit crimes and defraud people.