5 ms·

Appcelerator: extortion is just part of the job

70 points by masukomi 14y ago

jawngee 14y ago
The iPad app we've been working on is currently using a very useful plugin that can only be found in the Appcelerator ecosystem. I shall be ripping that out and finding some other solution to the problem. There are plenty of competitors in this space. If you were writing a native app you wouldn't have to rip anything out or have to find it elsewhere. Just sayin'. I have a fairly aggressive lack of sympathy for phonegap/titanium/"cheap shortcut" users in general and this whole incident is just sort of confirmation to part of the reason why.
- bergie 14y ago
  Phonegap has no such issues as it is now becoming an Apache project (see Apache Cordova). Before Apache I would have steered clear as well, for exactly the reasons you're mentioning. Of course, a well-made native application will perform better, but PhoneGap can be quite smooth too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467826 As a bonus, you'll get to utilize your existing web development skills. Besides, quite a lot of the "native" apps I've seen utilize some webviews anyway.
- debacle 14y ago
  > I have a fairly aggressive lack of sympathy for phonegap/titanium/"cheap shortcut" users in general They're fulfilling a need that is the same as someone who customizes WordPress or builds on top of Drupal - people who want custom software, but can't afford it. If the tools didn't work, then they wouldn't be used as much as they are, and if there was no demand for cheap mobile development with compromises, then the tools wouldn't exist.
  - gurkendoktor 14y ago
    > If the tools didn't work, then they wouldn't be used as much as they are The people who make the decision are not necessarily the ones who know what works and what doesn't. "It has to be HTML5" might just as well be the next "it must be object-oriented".
- masukomi 14y ago
  meh, I don't think this has really got anything to do with "cheap shortcut" methods. this is about broken morals. But, with that said, my impression is that while there are a lot of downsides to using HTML5 for your app, there's a LOT of amazing things you can do with the UI that are much harder in Objective C, and it's a hell of a lot more affordable to contract HTML devs than it is Obj C devs. ;) And when you're bootstrapping an app that is a big deal.
  - jonny_eh 14y ago
    Titanium isn't an HTML5 based app framework like Phonegap. It's a Javascript framework for building apps that use the native UI widgets.
    - pfisch 14y ago
      My experience with titanium was really poor. Lots of silent fails with no real error output. Also I found it very limited, more limited than just opening a webview and using html5 really and hooking into it with code for the native functionality.
      - gte910h 14y ago
        And horrible doc. Don't forget that!
        prpatel 14y ago
        The docs are pretty good, and the wiki is a wealth of information. where exactly are you looking?
      - prpatel 14y ago
        You must be joking. I've built several projects, for pay, using Titanium and find it to be very powerful and fast for building even complex mobile apps. The customers have been thrilled that I'm able to deliver tons of features in shorter time frames and hence lower cost. As for error output - you just need to look at the logs in detail (and turn them up to trace) to get details for hard crashed.
- jakejake 14y ago
  A lack of sympathy would be appropriate if the developer was having problems with the app quality, reliability, performance, etc. then I think we might all be with you that you don't deserve sympathy for your app sucking because you took technical shortcuts. But for a the vendor of development tools to start contacting my clients without my permission? That's ridiculous for them to even communicate with my clients, let alone try to get money.
lucaspiller 14y ago
Erm, something is dodgy here. Either this article is completely fiction or the CEO's response has been edited since this was posted (2 days ago). Here is the original post, the CEO's response is the accepted answer at the top: http://developer.appcelerator.com/question/142516/warning-licensing-of-titanium-chaotic-and-unclear-how-to-avoid-extortionate-fees http://developer.appcelerator.com/question/142516/warning-li... EDIT: Oh these quotes are from a comment by the CEO on the accepted answer.
- debacle 14y ago
  The CEO's response has been edited a few times since the incident.
ambirex 14y ago
I'm having a hard time giving this current dust up any credence. There has been one user who has come forward saying there was unethical behavior from the UK sales office, the CEO said there have been a couple reports. I'm not seeing a wide spread change in their behavior or offerings as this blog post suggests. While something to keep an eye on, I hardly think it warrants the attention it is currently receiving.
- masukomi 14y ago
  if you followed the story more closely you'd see that there are at least three reported instances, AND a CEO confirming multiple. this should NEVER happen. The fact that it has happened multiple times.... how can you not think that worth a dust-up... or four? You think it's ok to occasionally attempt to extort your customers? You think salespeople shouldn't be fired on the spot for treating your customers with such broken morality... repeatedly?
  - tzs 14y ago
    You are misinterpreting the CEO's statement. He said: Was the sales rep over eager and trying to hussle to get a deal? Probably. In my opinion, that's the job of the rep and we work with hundreds of new paying customers each quarter and we've only had a few complaints about it. He's not saying they've had a few complaints about so-called "extortion". He is saying they've had only a few complaints about their sales reps total for all causes.
juanbyrge 14y ago
Did appcelerator steal your blankie ? It's annouing dealing with developers like this that feel entitled to everything for free.
- masukomi 14y ago
  ... free? I don't give a shit about free vs. paid. I give a shit about how morally broken it is to practice extortion on your customers (free or otherwise). I've got no problem with paying for good service. Are you suggesting that it is unreasonable to be upset about a company you deal with trying to extort thousands of pounds from people?
  - true_religion 14y ago
    Not your customers... your clients. If you make an app for someone on a contract basis, then its theirs. Appcelerator might go after then because they're the ones running the project in breach---you're just the developer.
  - juanbyrge 14y ago
    I don't mean to sound patronizing but that's how sales (and business) works. Like it or not when you sign up for apcelerator you are part of their sales life cycle. And sometimes there might be confusion about who to contact about upgrading to a pro license. Sounds like an isolated human error. If you can't handle the prospect of being contacted by companies don't develop using their sdk, stick with developing apps for gnome or openbsd. Also you sound so bitter. Give forgiveness a chance.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      You wrote "Did appcelerator steal your blankie?", which is quite literally treating him like he's a three-year-old and you claim you didn't mean to sound patronizing? What else could have you possibly meant with that as an opening sentence? Also, you aggressively miss the point. He's not upset about being contacted. He's upset about having them threaten to take down his app.
- 14y ago
masukomi 14y ago
INTERESTING UPDATE: The CEOs comments to his "accepted answer", which my quotes were taken from, have since been removed from the Appcelerator forum. Funny that. ;)
- russnewcomer 14y ago
  No, they haven't. They are just not showing up right away because of the forum software's comment hiding. I just went to the post and loaded the entire text of his comment, which you reference in your post. I can't link to it, again because of their forum software, but if you click 'show X more comments' under the Accepted answer, you'll see the post.
  - masukomi 14y ago
    ahh thanks @russnewcomer will update the update comment on the post.
sainib 14y ago
I used Appcelerator to build my first app. I just loved the platform and started a meetup in my area recently because one did not existed. Before I built the app, I read the pricing page and went through their pricing FAQ and see that it was FREE if I dont use any of the add on features - and now I read this. I hope it turns out that there was just a shitty salesperson who was being over agressive and nothing else but I am sad to see that there is no clarification on pricing yet. Someone posted a link to an email chain with the companies sales person in that thread - http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4600727/Learning%20TI/AppC_Pricing_emails.pdf http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4600727/Learning%20TI/AppC_Pricing_e... - where the sales person made this statement - AppC Explore – This is free for anyone who wants to create an app that does not generate revenue in any way. Why is this statement not on the pricing page or even on Pricing FAQ page?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- franze 14y ago
  if i understand the CEOs comments correctly (which is not an easy thing) then this statement >his is free for anyone who wants to create an app that does not generate revenue in any way. is just not true (a.k.a. false). but in the current state of this affair, we do not know for sure (and maybe never will).
steve8918 14y ago
Saying that Appcelerator is extorting their users I'm pretty sure enters into libel territory. Extortion is a crime, and saying that Appcelerator committed a crime is setting you up for a lawsuit. It could very well have been an accident on the part of the sales person, and saying that the CEO is deceiving people because he doesn't use the same words that you would have used is simply wrong. If I were you, I would take down the post, or at least change the wording so that you're not saying they are extorting their customers.
- Domenic_S 14y ago
  Oh, please. Look, you can sue anyone for anything you want, at any time, so stop being so worried about it. Besides, the last thing they want to do is go make a case saying, "yes, we asked for 10,000 pounds after the fact, but it wasn't extortion!!"
- masukomi 14y ago
  You should note the very explicit disclaimer at the end noting that this is my personal opinion. Furthermore, the CEO apologized for the incident, and mentions that it happened before. Logically it happened by their own admission (so i'm not claiming anything they haven't already admitted to) and the conclusions based upon their comments ( like moral bankruptcy ) are A) literally unprovable and subjective and B) explicitly noted as my personal opinion, which is something we are legally allowed to note publicly.
  - steve8918 14y ago
    I strongly suggest you read up on what constitutes libel/defamation. Just by saying something is your opinion does not protect you, as least in the US. https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamati... They didn't apologize for extortion. They apologized for accidentally charging a developer. That is not extortion. Extortion is a very serious criminal offense. Unless you have proof that they are actually engaging in extortion, and that they are engaging in criminal activities, you are making yourself vulnerable to a lawsuit.

70 points by masukomi 14y ago

The iPad app we've been working on is currently using a very useful plugin that can only be found in the Appcelerator ecosystem. I shall be ripping that out and finding some other solution to the problem. There are plenty of competitors in this space. If you were writing a native app you wouldn't have to rip anything out or have to find it elsewhere. Just sayin'. I have a fairly aggressive lack of sympathy for phonegap/titanium/"cheap shortcut" users in general and this whole incident is just sort of confirmation to part of the reason why.

bergie 14y ago
Phonegap has no such issues as it is now becoming an Apache project (see Apache Cordova). Before Apache I would have steered clear as well, for exactly the reasons you're mentioning. Of course, a well-made native application will perform better, but PhoneGap can be quite smooth too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467826 As a bonus, you'll get to utilize your existing web development skills. Besides, quite a lot of the "native" apps I've seen utilize some webviews anyway.
debacle 14y ago
> I have a fairly aggressive lack of sympathy for phonegap/titanium/"cheap shortcut" users in general They're fulfilling a need that is the same as someone who customizes WordPress or builds on top of Drupal - people who want custom software, but can't afford it. If the tools didn't work, then they wouldn't be used as much as they are, and if there was no demand for cheap mobile development with compromises, then the tools wouldn't exist.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  > If the tools didn't work, then they wouldn't be used as much as they are The people who make the decision are not necessarily the ones who know what works and what doesn't. "It has to be HTML5" might just as well be the next "it must be object-oriented".
masukomi 14y ago
meh, I don't think this has really got anything to do with "cheap shortcut" methods. this is about broken morals. But, with that said, my impression is that while there are a lot of downsides to using HTML5 for your app, there's a LOT of amazing things you can do with the UI that are much harder in Objective C, and it's a hell of a lot more affordable to contract HTML devs than it is Obj C devs. ;) And when you're bootstrapping an app that is a big deal.
- jonny_eh 14y ago
  Titanium isn't an HTML5 based app framework like Phonegap. It's a Javascript framework for building apps that use the native UI widgets.
  - pfisch 14y ago
    My experience with titanium was really poor. Lots of silent fails with no real error output. Also I found it very limited, more limited than just opening a webview and using html5 really and hooking into it with code for the native functionality.
    - gte910h 14y ago
      And horrible doc. Don't forget that!
      - prpatel 14y ago
        The docs are pretty good, and the wiki is a wealth of information. where exactly are you looking?
    - prpatel 14y ago
      You must be joking. I've built several projects, for pay, using Titanium and find it to be very powerful and fast for building even complex mobile apps. The customers have been thrilled that I'm able to deliver tons of features in shorter time frames and hence lower cost. As for error output - you just need to look at the logs in detail (and turn them up to trace) to get details for hard crashed.
jakejake 14y ago
A lack of sympathy would be appropriate if the developer was having problems with the app quality, reliability, performance, etc. then I think we might all be with you that you don't deserve sympathy for your app sucking because you took technical shortcuts. But for a the vendor of development tools to start contacting my clients without my permission? That's ridiculous for them to even communicate with my clients, let alone try to get money.

lucaspiller 14y ago

Erm, something is dodgy here. Either this article is completely fiction or the CEO's response has been edited since this was posted (2 days ago). Here is the original post, the CEO's response is the accepted answer at the top: http://developer.appcelerator.com/question/142516/warning-licensing-of-titanium-chaotic-and-unclear-how-to-avoid-extortionate-fees http://developer.appcelerator.com/question/142516/warning-li... EDIT: Oh these quotes are from a comment by the CEO on the accepted answer.

debacle 14y ago
The CEO's response has been edited a few times since the incident.

ambirex 14y ago

I'm having a hard time giving this current dust up any credence. There has been one user who has come forward saying there was unethical behavior from the UK sales office, the CEO said there have been a couple reports. I'm not seeing a wide spread change in their behavior or offerings as this blog post suggests. While something to keep an eye on, I hardly think it warrants the attention it is currently receiving.

masukomi 14y ago
if you followed the story more closely you'd see that there are at least three reported instances, AND a CEO confirming multiple. this should NEVER happen. The fact that it has happened multiple times.... how can you not think that worth a dust-up... or four? You think it's ok to occasionally attempt to extort your customers? You think salespeople shouldn't be fired on the spot for treating your customers with such broken morality... repeatedly?
- tzs 14y ago
  You are misinterpreting the CEO's statement. He said: Was the sales rep over eager and trying to hussle to get a deal? Probably. In my opinion, that's the job of the rep and we work with hundreds of new paying customers each quarter and we've only had a few complaints about it. He's not saying they've had a few complaints about so-called "extortion". He is saying they've had only a few complaints about their sales reps total for all causes.

juanbyrge 14y ago

Did appcelerator steal your blankie ? It's annouing dealing with developers like this that feel entitled to everything for free.

masukomi 14y ago
... free? I don't give a shit about free vs. paid. I give a shit about how morally broken it is to practice extortion on your customers (free or otherwise). I've got no problem with paying for good service. Are you suggesting that it is unreasonable to be upset about a company you deal with trying to extort thousands of pounds from people?
- true_religion 14y ago
  Not your customers... your clients. If you make an app for someone on a contract basis, then its theirs. Appcelerator might go after then because they're the ones running the project in breach---you're just the developer.
- juanbyrge 14y ago
  I don't mean to sound patronizing but that's how sales (and business) works. Like it or not when you sign up for apcelerator you are part of their sales life cycle. And sometimes there might be confusion about who to contact about upgrading to a pro license. Sounds like an isolated human error. If you can't handle the prospect of being contacted by companies don't develop using their sdk, stick with developing apps for gnome or openbsd. Also you sound so bitter. Give forgiveness a chance.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    You wrote "Did appcelerator steal your blankie?", which is quite literally treating him like he's a three-year-old and you claim you didn't mean to sound patronizing? What else could have you possibly meant with that as an opening sentence? Also, you aggressively miss the point. He's not upset about being contacted. He's upset about having them threaten to take down his app.
14y ago

masukomi 14y ago

INTERESTING UPDATE: The CEOs comments to his "accepted answer", which my quotes were taken from, have since been removed from the Appcelerator forum. Funny that. ;)

russnewcomer 14y ago
No, they haven't. They are just not showing up right away because of the forum software's comment hiding. I just went to the post and loaded the entire text of his comment, which you reference in your post. I can't link to it, again because of their forum software, but if you click 'show X more comments' under the Accepted answer, you'll see the post.
- masukomi 14y ago
  ahh thanks @russnewcomer will update the update comment on the post.

sainib 14y ago

I used Appcelerator to build my first app. I just loved the platform and started a meetup in my area recently because one did not existed. Before I built the app, I read the pricing page and went through their pricing FAQ and see that it was FREE if I dont use any of the add on features - and now I read this. I hope it turns out that there was just a shitty salesperson who was being over agressive and nothing else but I am sad to see that there is no clarification on pricing yet. Someone posted a link to an email chain with the companies sales person in that thread - http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4600727/Learning%20TI/AppC_Pricing_emails.pdf http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4600727/Learning%20TI/AppC_Pricing_e... - where the sales person made this statement - AppC Explore – This is free for anyone who wants to create an app that does not generate revenue in any way. Why is this statement not on the pricing page or even on Pricing FAQ page?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
franze 14y ago
if i understand the CEOs comments correctly (which is not an easy thing) then this statement >his is free for anyone who wants to create an app that does not generate revenue in any way. is just not true (a.k.a. false). but in the current state of this affair, we do not know for sure (and maybe never will).

steve8918 14y ago

Saying that Appcelerator is extorting their users I'm pretty sure enters into libel territory. Extortion is a crime, and saying that Appcelerator committed a crime is setting you up for a lawsuit. It could very well have been an accident on the part of the sales person, and saying that the CEO is deceiving people because he doesn't use the same words that you would have used is simply wrong. If I were you, I would take down the post, or at least change the wording so that you're not saying they are extorting their customers.

Domenic_S 14y ago
Oh, please. Look, you can sue anyone for anything you want, at any time, so stop being so worried about it. Besides, the last thing they want to do is go make a case saying, "yes, we asked for 10,000 pounds after the fact, but it wasn't extortion!!"
masukomi 14y ago
You should note the very explicit disclaimer at the end noting that this is my personal opinion. Furthermore, the CEO apologized for the incident, and mentions that it happened before. Logically it happened by their own admission (so i'm not claiming anything they haven't already admitted to) and the conclusions based upon their comments ( like moral bankruptcy ) are A) literally unprovable and subjective and B) explicitly noted as my personal opinion, which is something we are legally allowed to note publicly.
- steve8918 14y ago
  I strongly suggest you read up on what constitutes libel/defamation. Just by saying something is your opinion does not protect you, as least in the US. https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamati... They didn't apologize for extortion. They apologized for accidentally charging a developer. That is not extortion. Extortion is a very serious criminal offense. Unless you have proof that they are actually engaging in extortion, and that they are engaging in criminal activities, you are making yourself vulnerable to a lawsuit.