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Those students would have just gone to other countries, written their PhD dissertations there, advanced another country’s tech sector, and the US would have fou

Those students would have just gone to other countries, written their PhD dissertations there, advanced another country’s tech sector, and the US would have found the pain of isolationism that much sooner. It is not possible to keep core IP secret. HN folks, of all people, should know this. Anything that thousands of people know is de facto public knowledge.

ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
Keeping core IP secret is not the issue. The issue is allowing the Chinese to steal IP and then compete in our markets with that stolen IP. >students would have just gone to other countries, written their PhD dissertations there, advanced another country’s tech sector, which other countries specifically? No other country has a tech sector. It's the US hegemony or the China hegemony.
- FpUser 1y ago
  >"...The issue is allowing the Chinese to steal IP..." I do not think they need permission. There is no force that could order country to recognize IP. Do you really expect all world forever pay rent to few giant corps?
  - ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
    Bad reading comprehension. You're talking about recognizing IP, I am talking about stealing IP AND selling stolen IP in our markets. 1st: yes force can be used to discourage the theft of IP. This is merely an obstacle, not a total blocker 2nd: yes force can be used to block IP from our markets. This is actually incredibly trivial and would have been very easy 40-years ago.
    - FpUser 1y ago
      >You're talking about recognizing IP, I am talking about stealing IP ..." If country does not recognize IP then "stealing" is not a theft in their eyes. As for using force to prevent "theft": what force? Military? You might get burned really bad.
      - corimaith 1y ago
        A military controlling the flow of goods into its own borders isn't going to "burn bad", it's called customs controls.
        FpUser 1y ago
        >"The issue is allowing the Chinese to steal IP and then compete in our markets with that stolen IP" That was the original message. My understanding of "our markets" was customers of the US which include the US itself, China and many other countries. Sure the US can prohibit importing of China's goods. It can not control what happens in the rest of the world to the degree that it once could.
        ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
        I did specify the 70s 80s and 90s.
      - ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
        Sorry no. If you can't imagine how one country couldn't use force to stop another country from stealing IP then you are either not intellectually up to this conversation or not arguing in good faith.
corimaith 1y ago
How are you going to gain core IP research if you don't have experience or access to leading edge researchers to pass you knowledge in the first place? Talent is proportional to population, but that only matters if society and state has the infrastructure to raise that talent up. Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets.
- Cyph0n 1y ago
  > Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets. The reason why these statements are not true is because of colonization, delayed industrialization, and Western intervention post-independence. Getting out of this “quicksand” is exceedingly difficult. China did well to industrialize quickly and keep intervention at bay - in fact, you could argue that it making the rest of the world reliant on its industrial capacity helped address the intervention problem.
  - wagwang 1y ago
    This world view is just wrong from top to bottom. Between 1945-1970, China was in a much worser state that any of those 3rd world countries in many aspects. Are you saying post 1970, the reason why these countries did not develop as fast as china is because of colonialism and intervention? You can apply the same arguments to Japan in 45 and Korea in 50. But but but aid? Ok and we send billions to countries all around the world every year.
    - Cyph0n 1y ago
      But I just pointed out that China is an exception? Also, China had access to human capital at a scale that no African country had. Japan pre-45 was a world power, and had industrialized by the early 1900s. WW2 was a mere setback. Korea is more of a “miracle” than Japan was, but they also did well to industrialize ASAP. They also didn’t face the brunt of European colonialism.
      - 1y ago

ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago

Keeping core IP secret is not the issue. The issue is allowing the Chinese to steal IP and then compete in our markets with that stolen IP. >students would have just gone to other countries, written their PhD dissertations there, advanced another country’s tech sector, which other countries specifically? No other country has a tech sector. It's the US hegemony or the China hegemony.

FpUser 1y ago
>"...The issue is allowing the Chinese to steal IP..." I do not think they need permission. There is no force that could order country to recognize IP. Do you really expect all world forever pay rent to few giant corps?
- ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
  Bad reading comprehension. You're talking about recognizing IP, I am talking about stealing IP AND selling stolen IP in our markets. 1st: yes force can be used to discourage the theft of IP. This is merely an obstacle, not a total blocker 2nd: yes force can be used to block IP from our markets. This is actually incredibly trivial and would have been very easy 40-years ago.
  - FpUser 1y ago
    >You're talking about recognizing IP, I am talking about stealing IP ..." If country does not recognize IP then "stealing" is not a theft in their eyes. As for using force to prevent "theft": what force? Military? You might get burned really bad.
    - corimaith 1y ago
      A military controlling the flow of goods into its own borders isn't going to "burn bad", it's called customs controls.
      - FpUser 1y ago
        >"The issue is allowing the Chinese to steal IP and then compete in our markets with that stolen IP" That was the original message. My understanding of "our markets" was customers of the US which include the US itself, China and many other countries. Sure the US can prohibit importing of China's goods. It can not control what happens in the rest of the world to the degree that it once could.
        ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
        I did specify the 70s 80s and 90s.
    - ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
      Sorry no. If you can't imagine how one country couldn't use force to stop another country from stealing IP then you are either not intellectually up to this conversation or not arguing in good faith.

corimaith 1y ago

How are you going to gain core IP research if you don't have experience or access to leading edge researchers to pass you knowledge in the first place? Talent is proportional to population, but that only matters if society and state has the infrastructure to raise that talent up. Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets.

Cyph0n 1y ago
> Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets. The reason why these statements are not true is because of colonization, delayed industrialization, and Western intervention post-independence. Getting out of this “quicksand” is exceedingly difficult. China did well to industrialize quickly and keep intervention at bay - in fact, you could argue that it making the rest of the world reliant on its industrial capacity helped address the intervention problem.
- wagwang 1y ago
  This world view is just wrong from top to bottom. Between 1945-1970, China was in a much worser state that any of those 3rd world countries in many aspects. Are you saying post 1970, the reason why these countries did not develop as fast as china is because of colonialism and intervention? You can apply the same arguments to Japan in 45 and Korea in 50. But but but aid? Ok and we send billions to countries all around the world every year.
  - Cyph0n 1y ago
    But I just pointed out that China is an exception? Also, China had access to human capital at a scale that no African country had. Japan pre-45 was a world power, and had industrialized by the early 1900s. WW2 was a mere setback. Korea is more of a “miracle” than Japan was, but they also did well to industrialize ASAP. They also didn’t face the brunt of European colonialism.
    - 1y ago