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Tbh this whole situation reminds of how Japan excelled in making a lot more with a lot less after WW2, e.g., fuel-efficient engines, light cars, etc. these cons

Tbh this whole situation reminds of how Japan excelled in making a lot more with a lot less after WW2, e.g., fuel-efficient engines, light cars, etc. these constraints were not present in the US (and to some extent in Europe), and resulted in US cars being completely not competitive in non-US markets.

dataviz1000 1y ago
I've been in Chile, Peru, Colombia, Panama, and Costa Rica. The streets are flooded with cheap Chinese cars and I see more BYD than American cars. If the car wasn't made in Japan or Korea which probably account for most of the cars, it was likely made in China. Moreover, I haven't been in countries with the closest ties to China.
- sofixa 1y ago
  > The streets are flooded with cheap Chinese cars and I see more BYD than American cars This isn't surprising in any way, American "cars" (quotes because the vast majority of what American manufacturers pump out isn't cars, it's trucks) haven't been competitive in decades. The only globally competitive vehicles were developed in Europe by GM Europe (Opel, since sold to PSA now Stellantis) or Ford Europe (which axed all models bar the Puma). The rest is too big, expensive and inefficient from the vast majority of uses. Tariffs and good marketing keep American car manufacturers in business in the US, but those don't work in most other markets. The more appropriate comparison is with European automakers such as VW Group, Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroën, DS, Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge, Ram), Renault. And there too BYD is winning as well in mosy countries, but at least there's a comparison possible.
  - Workaccount2 1y ago
    The US couldn't compete anyway. The US is an advanced economy and will struggle to compete in non-advanced categories. It's like trying to level your MMORPG character to 100 by only farming in lvl 30-40 mob areas. It's really not worth it and mostly forced.
    - sofixa 1y ago
      Cars are relatively advanced and more importantly, seen as a status symbol by many. There is, IMO, plenty of space for not-the-cheapest, quality cars. Take Renault for example, their Renault 5 and 4 EVs are good looking, not luxury but definitely premium, and the 5 sedan starts at 30k€; the 4 crossover starts at 29k€. This is before a 5k€ government subsidy. Their boring, fewer bells and whistles, low cost model, the Dacia Spring, starts at 17k€. The Renault 5 and 4 are made almost entirely in France, while the Dacia is made in Romania - a lower cost country, but still an EU member state. The comparable in size and autonomy BYD Dolphin starts at 20k€. Both for cheapness and quality/design, Renault are competitive.
      - rkomorn 1y ago
        The new 5 is one of the first cars I've really liked in a while. They really nailed the modern-with-subtle-calls-to-retro look.
        sofixa 1y ago
        Agreed, I'm not a car person and too young to remember the original 5, but it's really good and fun and modern and slightly retro looking. It's almost making me want to buy it, and I have absolutely no use for it.
        rkomorn 1y ago
        If you haven't already (which seems unlikely), look into the Renault 5 Turbo. Bit of an absurd car, but the modern (non-turbo) 5's slight bumps over the rear wheels are such a good callback to the Turbo (the original Renault 5 were basically all flat). Really fine design stuff IMO.
tsunamifury 1y ago
The premature optimizer is never the innovator. Japan eventually stopped that role and their products improved greatly.
- djmips 1y ago
  I like your point but I think it's a little too harsh to call it premature. Sometimes you're forced into that position and it makes sense to do so. But it's a good take if you're busying yourself with optimizations of old tech you'll never innovate or be a leader. It's still a good preoccupation in many constrained situations.
  - tsunamifury 1y ago
    The massive counter to my point is Sergey brin inventing cloud computing from off the shelf Components because they couldn’t afford standard mainframe hardware of the time.
throwaway2037 1y ago
> US cars being completely not competitive in non-US markets This is definitely untrue in Canada and large parts of LATAM. American cars are all over those places, along with Japanese cars.

dataviz1000 1y ago

I've been in Chile, Peru, Colombia, Panama, and Costa Rica. The streets are flooded with cheap Chinese cars and I see more BYD than American cars. If the car wasn't made in Japan or Korea which probably account for most of the cars, it was likely made in China. Moreover, I haven't been in countries with the closest ties to China.

sofixa 1y ago
> The streets are flooded with cheap Chinese cars and I see more BYD than American cars This isn't surprising in any way, American "cars" (quotes because the vast majority of what American manufacturers pump out isn't cars, it's trucks) haven't been competitive in decades. The only globally competitive vehicles were developed in Europe by GM Europe (Opel, since sold to PSA now Stellantis) or Ford Europe (which axed all models bar the Puma). The rest is too big, expensive and inefficient from the vast majority of uses. Tariffs and good marketing keep American car manufacturers in business in the US, but those don't work in most other markets. The more appropriate comparison is with European automakers such as VW Group, Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroën, DS, Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge, Ram), Renault. And there too BYD is winning as well in mosy countries, but at least there's a comparison possible.
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  The US couldn't compete anyway. The US is an advanced economy and will struggle to compete in non-advanced categories. It's like trying to level your MMORPG character to 100 by only farming in lvl 30-40 mob areas. It's really not worth it and mostly forced.
  - sofixa 1y ago
    Cars are relatively advanced and more importantly, seen as a status symbol by many. There is, IMO, plenty of space for not-the-cheapest, quality cars. Take Renault for example, their Renault 5 and 4 EVs are good looking, not luxury but definitely premium, and the 5 sedan starts at 30k€; the 4 crossover starts at 29k€. This is before a 5k€ government subsidy. Their boring, fewer bells and whistles, low cost model, the Dacia Spring, starts at 17k€. The Renault 5 and 4 are made almost entirely in France, while the Dacia is made in Romania - a lower cost country, but still an EU member state. The comparable in size and autonomy BYD Dolphin starts at 20k€. Both for cheapness and quality/design, Renault are competitive.
    - rkomorn 1y ago
      The new 5 is one of the first cars I've really liked in a while. They really nailed the modern-with-subtle-calls-to-retro look.
      - sofixa 1y ago
        Agreed, I'm not a car person and too young to remember the original 5, but it's really good and fun and modern and slightly retro looking. It's almost making me want to buy it, and I have absolutely no use for it.
        rkomorn 1y ago
        If you haven't already (which seems unlikely), look into the Renault 5 Turbo. Bit of an absurd car, but the modern (non-turbo) 5's slight bumps over the rear wheels are such a good callback to the Turbo (the original Renault 5 were basically all flat). Really fine design stuff IMO.

tsunamifury 1y ago

The premature optimizer is never the innovator. Japan eventually stopped that role and their products improved greatly.

djmips 1y ago
I like your point but I think it's a little too harsh to call it premature. Sometimes you're forced into that position and it makes sense to do so. But it's a good take if you're busying yourself with optimizations of old tech you'll never innovate or be a leader. It's still a good preoccupation in many constrained situations.
- tsunamifury 1y ago
  The massive counter to my point is Sergey brin inventing cloud computing from off the shelf Components because they couldn’t afford standard mainframe hardware of the time.

throwaway2037 1y ago

> US cars being completely not competitive in non-US markets This is definitely untrue in Canada and large parts of LATAM. American cars are all over those places, along with Japanese cars.