6 ms·

What did China even do to be seen as this super evil enemy? Apart from actually challenging American economic superiority?

by tock 1y ago

soramimo 1y ago
Well if you care about democracy, they are the only power that can arguably undermine it, not just at home, but worldwide (tiktok, fueling division, funding antidemocratic parties like Germany's AfD). Further, look into their support of Russia in their war of conquest against Ukraine, the treatment of their neighbors like the Philippines and look into what their fishing fleet is up to worldwide.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- tock 1y ago
  > if you care about democracy I do > they are the only power that can arguably undermine it Stares at current administration > tiktok Meta. Myanmar. Report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-facebooks-systems-promoted-violence-against-rohingya-meta-owes-reparations-new-report/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb... > fueling division Again stares at current administration > funding antidemocratic parties like Germany's AfD Elon. Vance. Report: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/us/politics/vance-far-right-germany-munich-afd.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/us/politics/vance-far-rig... > support of Russia in their war of conquest against Ukraine Agree. Looks over at Palestine. > the treatment of their neighbors like the Philippines Venezuela. Today.
  - soramimo 1y ago
    To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of the current administration. In fact, I would argue that they have a similar "might makes right" mindset to the CCP and should be opposed on the same grounds. If anything, foreign adversaries like China or Russia welcome / help to power parties like the current administration so democracies self destruct.
    - tock 1y ago
      And I'm saying this has nothing to do with moral goods like democracy. The US has toppled plenty of democracies and killed millions of innocent people for its own benefit. "Might makes right" is what we always practiced. The current administration just doesn't care to hide it. This has everything to do with maintaining economic and military superiority. That's the reason why people consider China a "adversary" not morality. If you don't understand this you won't understand why such a huge percentage of the world's population is wary of the USA just like they are wary of China.
      - soramimo 1y ago
        I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The US is far from perfect, but - so far, TBD where we go from here - has had IMHO a net positive influence on keeping democracy around (specifically, I'm thinking of Germany after WW2, Western Europe during the Cold War, Japan and with detours South Korea). Perhaps you'll point out that the US did this out of pure self-interest and these countries are just vassal states to the US. However, a useful comparison in this context is comparing Western Germany (US) to Eastern Germany (Russia), South Korea (US) to North Korea (China) or, say, Poland (US/EU) to Belarus (Russia) to assess which sphere of influence (and its implications on national self-determination) is preferable. Going back to democracy, in my view is not the "default state" of human society (the default is probably mob rule like we have in Russia). > That's the reason why people consider China a "adversary" not morality. I personally view Russia and China as adversaries because they are a serious threat to democracy worldwide (that I think we agree on?), which I believe is the very thing we're discussing. So in summary, there are very good reasons to be critical of China (CCP) independent of the current US administrations actions and historical baggage of the US.
        tock 1y ago
        Your examples of the US doing good for democracy is correct. My examples of the US doing bad and dismantling democracy for its own benefit is also correct. The US has been fantastic for its own people and its allies. Not so for others. Please note that 85% of the world population lies outside. But all your examples are vs Russia. I will be happy if Russia is dismantled. Both the Soviet Union and Russia has been terrible for its people. China has been absolutely fantastic for its people. They went from absolute poverty to challenging the greatest empire the world has ever seen in just a few decades. I doubt the Chinese people hate their regime. > to assess which sphere of influence (and its implications on national self-determination) is preferable Iran, Guatemala, Brazil, etc. All had democratic govt's overthrown by the US. > I personally view Russia and China as adversaries because they are a serious threat to democracy worldwide (that I think we agree on?), which I believe is the very thing we're discussing. I personally view Russia, USA and China as serious threats to democracy. Because all three have toppled democratic countries for its benefit. And no I don't think they do it because they hate democracy. They do it because it helps their superiority. The victims just happened to be democratic sometimes. > So in summary, there are very good reasons to be critical of China (CCP) independent of the current US administrations actions and historical baggage of the US. And there are very good reasons to be critical of the USA independent of the current Chinese administrations actions and historical baggage of China. My whole point is that administrations do things for economic and military superiority. Things like morality are just used by administrations to justify actions to their populace. I am sure you _personally_ dislike China for purely moral reasons. Most people are good who think in terms of morality. That is exactly why framing a rival as "evil" works so well. It's about power. If the world works on the basis of justice then the EU should have sanctioned the US for the Iraq debacle and now Palestine. Can you maybe take a few minutes and write down all the good+bad things the US has done since say WW2 vs China? You'll understand why a neutral third party is wary of both.
- heidarb 1y ago
  I’ll just leave this here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_electoral_interventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_electoral_inte... It’s a complex issue. It’s understandable people want democracy but it’s also understandable that it can be seen as a security risk. The brexit referendum in the UK is probably the best modern example of this.
hker 1y ago
Sending planes close to Taiwan, threatening invasion everyday, like what Russia did before invading Ukraine? Was Russia merely challenging American superiority?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- tock 1y ago
  What Russia is doing is horrific. I am not saying China is a kingdom of goodness. Rather I am saying the US does the same. We have invaded plenty and is supporting an invasion in the middle east right now. The problem we have with China isn't moral. We have plenty of allies who are morally bad. But they aren't challenging us economically unlike China.
- LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
  If you look at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zon... pictured in the lower left, tell me how not to send airplanes into that, when you're the PRC? This is just bad comedy!
_DeadFred_ 1y ago
I like the Chinese people, Chinese history, and loved visiting. My dad was a hippie with lots of books in the house in support of China's communist revolution. That said I think the big one is that China did not keep their word to the UK regarding Hong Kong. So that moves them to 'suspect' as far as trust goes with Western nations. I think their secret police stations imbedded/hidden in western nations and their supposed use for secret forced repatriation of people really soured a lot of people/nations on trusting China's behavior. They are doing a lot of saber rattling regarding Taiwan. Lots of flights as well as naval movements that have raised concerns. People really don't like what they believe has been happening in Xinjiang.
- tock 1y ago
  This is all true. From a western perspective this is bad. From an non-western perspective this is just what the west has been doing forever. That's my sentiment about the whole thing. The US is just mad that China is challenging them in their own game especially economically. And I am not saying thats bad either. Every country wants to maintain superiority.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- litbear2022 1y ago
  The invaded country has no obligation or reason to make any promises to its former colonial master.
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    If you are referring to Hong Kong residents as the "invaded country", they are the ones desiring the promises be kept. And once one makes a promise, it is immaterial whether there was an "obligation or reason" to do so. Really, all you are saying is China should be free to imprison, torture, and kill dissidents without any criticism, because another country was mean to them once upon a time.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
tim333 1y ago
Are they described by anyone as a super evil enemy? Is so by whom? The main worry seems not that they are super evil but the combination of threatening some bad stuff like invading Taiwan with having a lot of military and economic power.

What did China even do to be seen as this super evil enemy? Apart from actually challenging American economic superiority?

by tock 1y ago

What did China even do to be seen as this super evil enemy? Apart from actually challenging American economic superiority?

soramimo 1y ago

Well if you care about democracy, they are the only power that can arguably undermine it, not just at home, but worldwide (tiktok, fueling division, funding antidemocratic parties like Germany's AfD). Further, look into their support of Russia in their war of conquest against Ukraine, the treatment of their neighbors like the Philippines and look into what their fishing fleet is up to worldwide.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
tock 1y ago
> if you care about democracy I do > they are the only power that can arguably undermine it Stares at current administration > tiktok Meta. Myanmar. Report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-facebooks-systems-promoted-violence-against-rohingya-meta-owes-reparations-new-report/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb... > fueling division Again stares at current administration > funding antidemocratic parties like Germany's AfD Elon. Vance. Report: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/us/politics/vance-far-right-germany-munich-afd.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/14/us/politics/vance-far-rig... > support of Russia in their war of conquest against Ukraine Agree. Looks over at Palestine. > the treatment of their neighbors like the Philippines Venezuela. Today.
- soramimo 1y ago
  To be clear, I'm not arguing in favor of the current administration. In fact, I would argue that they have a similar "might makes right" mindset to the CCP and should be opposed on the same grounds. If anything, foreign adversaries like China or Russia welcome / help to power parties like the current administration so democracies self destruct.
  - tock 1y ago
    And I'm saying this has nothing to do with moral goods like democracy. The US has toppled plenty of democracies and killed millions of innocent people for its own benefit. "Might makes right" is what we always practiced. The current administration just doesn't care to hide it. This has everything to do with maintaining economic and military superiority. That's the reason why people consider China a "adversary" not morality. If you don't understand this you won't understand why such a huge percentage of the world's population is wary of the USA just like they are wary of China.
    - soramimo 1y ago
      I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The US is far from perfect, but - so far, TBD where we go from here - has had IMHO a net positive influence on keeping democracy around (specifically, I'm thinking of Germany after WW2, Western Europe during the Cold War, Japan and with detours South Korea). Perhaps you'll point out that the US did this out of pure self-interest and these countries are just vassal states to the US. However, a useful comparison in this context is comparing Western Germany (US) to Eastern Germany (Russia), South Korea (US) to North Korea (China) or, say, Poland (US/EU) to Belarus (Russia) to assess which sphere of influence (and its implications on national self-determination) is preferable. Going back to democracy, in my view is not the "default state" of human society (the default is probably mob rule like we have in Russia). > That's the reason why people consider China a "adversary" not morality. I personally view Russia and China as adversaries because they are a serious threat to democracy worldwide (that I think we agree on?), which I believe is the very thing we're discussing. So in summary, there are very good reasons to be critical of China (CCP) independent of the current US administrations actions and historical baggage of the US.
      - tock 1y ago
        Your examples of the US doing good for democracy is correct. My examples of the US doing bad and dismantling democracy for its own benefit is also correct. The US has been fantastic for its own people and its allies. Not so for others. Please note that 85% of the world population lies outside. But all your examples are vs Russia. I will be happy if Russia is dismantled. Both the Soviet Union and Russia has been terrible for its people. China has been absolutely fantastic for its people. They went from absolute poverty to challenging the greatest empire the world has ever seen in just a few decades. I doubt the Chinese people hate their regime. > to assess which sphere of influence (and its implications on national self-determination) is preferable Iran, Guatemala, Brazil, etc. All had democratic govt's overthrown by the US. > I personally view Russia and China as adversaries because they are a serious threat to democracy worldwide (that I think we agree on?), which I believe is the very thing we're discussing. I personally view Russia, USA and China as serious threats to democracy. Because all three have toppled democratic countries for its benefit. And no I don't think they do it because they hate democracy. They do it because it helps their superiority. The victims just happened to be democratic sometimes. > So in summary, there are very good reasons to be critical of China (CCP) independent of the current US administrations actions and historical baggage of the US. And there are very good reasons to be critical of the USA independent of the current Chinese administrations actions and historical baggage of China. My whole point is that administrations do things for economic and military superiority. Things like morality are just used by administrations to justify actions to their populace. I am sure you _personally_ dislike China for purely moral reasons. Most people are good who think in terms of morality. That is exactly why framing a rival as "evil" works so well. It's about power. If the world works on the basis of justice then the EU should have sanctioned the US for the Iraq debacle and now Palestine. Can you maybe take a few minutes and write down all the good+bad things the US has done since say WW2 vs China? You'll understand why a neutral third party is wary of both.
heidarb 1y ago
I’ll just leave this here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_electoral_interventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_electoral_inte... It’s a complex issue. It’s understandable people want democracy but it’s also understandable that it can be seen as a security risk. The brexit referendum in the UK is probably the best modern example of this.

hker 1y ago

Sending planes close to Taiwan, threatening invasion everyday, like what Russia did before invading Ukraine? Was Russia merely challenging American superiority?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
tock 1y ago
What Russia is doing is horrific. I am not saying China is a kingdom of goodness. Rather I am saying the US does the same. We have invaded plenty and is supporting an invasion in the middle east right now. The problem we have with China isn't moral. We have plenty of allies who are morally bad. But they aren't challenging us economically unlike China.
LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
If you look at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(Taiwan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zon... pictured in the lower left, tell me how not to send airplanes into that, when you're the PRC? This is just bad comedy!

_DeadFred_ 1y ago

I like the Chinese people, Chinese history, and loved visiting. My dad was a hippie with lots of books in the house in support of China's communist revolution. That said I think the big one is that China did not keep their word to the UK regarding Hong Kong. So that moves them to 'suspect' as far as trust goes with Western nations. I think their secret police stations imbedded/hidden in western nations and their supposed use for secret forced repatriation of people really soured a lot of people/nations on trusting China's behavior. They are doing a lot of saber rattling regarding Taiwan. Lots of flights as well as naval movements that have raised concerns. People really don't like what they believe has been happening in Xinjiang.

tock 1y ago
This is all true. From a western perspective this is bad. From an non-western perspective this is just what the west has been doing forever. That's my sentiment about the whole thing. The US is just mad that China is challenging them in their own game especially economically. And I am not saying thats bad either. Every country wants to maintain superiority.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
litbear2022 1y ago
The invaded country has no obligation or reason to make any promises to its former colonial master.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  If you are referring to Hong Kong residents as the "invaded country", they are the ones desiring the promises be kept. And once one makes a promise, it is immaterial whether there was an "obligation or reason" to do so. Really, all you are saying is China should be free to imprison, torture, and kill dissidents without any criticism, because another country was mean to them once upon a time.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

tim333 1y ago

Are they described by anyone as a super evil enemy? Is so by whom? The main worry seems not that they are super evil but the combination of threatening some bad stuff like invading Taiwan with having a lot of military and economic power.