4 ms·

I seem to remember reading somewhere that low walls like this weren't really about defense, they were about funneling travelers (with carts) to the tax collecto

I seem to remember reading somewhere that low walls like this weren't really about defense, they were about funneling travelers (with carts) to the tax collectors.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
thaumasiotes 1y ago
What would the point be, in the Gobi desert? The structure of traveling through that is that you follow the silk road between a bunch of major cities built around oases. It's not necessary to divert anyone with walls - the fact that they need to drink, and that they won't be willing to wander off into the desert, get lost, and die, is sufficient. You don't move people to the tax collectors. You move the tax collectors to them.
- manwe150 1y ago
  Unless maybe the point of the wall was to provide the road marker itself that guided folks to the nearest survival point? The article mentions there were frequent wells and encampments, but so few other details
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > The article mentions there were frequent wells and encampments They aren't arguing that wells were dug to support the wall garrison. They're arguing that, because the wall needed to be garrisoned, it could only visit places where there were or could be wells: >> our spatial and ecological analysis demonstrates that the distribution of local resources, such as water and wood, was critical in determining the route of the wall and the placement of associated garrisons and forts. ( https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087 https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087 )
- AlotOfReading 1y ago
  Are you thinking of the Taklamakan? People wander around the Gobi as a way of life. It's not quite as extreme as you're painting it. In any case, the traditional routes for the northern silk roads passed south of these walls through the Hexi corridor, at least until the Mongol period when many of them rerouted through the Orkhon valley north of the Gobi. Separate from the silk roads, there was a lot of trade/conflict between the northern Chinese states and the various Mongolian polities like the Liao. Managing that was both economically and existentially necessary for the border states like the xixia. Also, nomads usually moved to the tax collectors instead of the other way around. More practical that way.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > Are you thinking of the Taklamakan? People wander around the Gobi as a way of life. It's not quite as extreme as you're painting it. Perhaps, but I'll note that the pictures in the article show the region as being easily that extreme, and the words say this: >> large sections [of the wall] were built near sand dunes that would have acted as additional barriers > Also, nomads usually moved to the tax collectors instead of the other way around. More practical that way. That's different in no way from what I stated above. If you want to tax people crossing the desert, you station the tax collectors at the oases all travelers must visit. If you want to tax nomads showing up to buy tools, you station the tax collectors in the markets they must visit. These are both cases of moving the tax collector to the people being taxed. And in both cases, there's not an alternative. You can't direct the people to go visit the tax collector; they won't follow your instructions. What would be in it for them?
    - AlotOfReading 1y ago
      Perhaps, but I'll note that the pictures in the article show the region as being easily that extreme, and the words say this It's not. The Gobi is filled with marginal seasonal grazing lands, though certain areas are more valuable than others. It's undergone additional desertification in recent centuries as well. That's different in no way from what I stated above. If you want to tax people crossing the desert, you station the tax collectors at the oases all travelers must visit. People in the Gobi, particularly the northern Gobi, don't always (or even usually) travel by way of journeys between oases. That style of travel is more characteristic of silk roads and the deserts to the southwest like the Taklamakan. If you want to tax nomads showing up to buy tools, you station the tax collectors in the markets they must visit. This wall doesn't run through market areas. The markets involved would have been farther south in the tangut heartland, southwest in the hexi corridor, or north in Mongolia proper. "Markets" is also a bit of a misleading term here because the Mongolian side of this trade would have been a diffuse network of nomadic groups rather than people inhabiting fixed cities on a landscape. I'm not emphasizing this for pedantic reasons. This wall is generally thought to have been intended as a very literal manifestation of the boundaries of the state and this whole area is what we call a borderlands. Western xia itself is a bit of a borderland in its entirety, and probably found it pretty useful to lay out a very physical manifestation of their power everyone could see. That's not the only reason something like this would have been built, but it's a relevant one. Medieval states were constantly negotiating the boundaries of power before everyone accepted the modern notion of statehood. Physical walls were a particularly popular way to make that point in what's now China. And in both cases, there's not an alternative. You can't direct the people to go visit the tax collector; they won't follow your instructions. What would be in it for them? The parts you're responding to were speaking more specifically about the mongol period, which I know more about. This particular borderland is a somewhat different place a couple centuries earlier. But anyway, the mistake here is thinking in a modern transactional framework. That's not how (mongol-era) Mongolia worked. Hierarchy was based on personal loyalty networks. A vassal provided loyalty, which could include taxes. Disloyalty was swiftly punished if the lord could, or the loyalty arrangement was renegotiated to something more agreeable. If it sounds like a fragile way to run a continent-spanning empire, you've identified one of the issues the Mongols faced Similar things existed outside Mongolia as well, but Wikipedia's going to be as good or better than what I know on the subject.
- smogcutter 1y ago
  If only you could go back and tell them what a waste those walls are! I’m sure the Mongolians would value your expertise.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    I'm not criticizing the Mongols ("Mongolians"?) for building a pointless "line up here" wall. I'm pointing out that that's not something they did, and criticizing jpollock for suggesting it was.
    - smogcutter 1y ago
      > I'm pointing out that that's not something they did Well that settles it then!
      - Larrikin 1y ago
        Source?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that low walls like this weren't really about defense, they were about funneling travelers (with carts) to the tax collectors.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

thaumasiotes 1y ago

What would the point be, in the Gobi desert? The structure of traveling through that is that you follow the silk road between a bunch of major cities built around oases. It's not necessary to divert anyone with walls - the fact that they need to drink, and that they won't be willing to wander off into the desert, get lost, and die, is sufficient. You don't move people to the tax collectors. You move the tax collectors to them.

manwe150 1y ago
Unless maybe the point of the wall was to provide the road marker itself that guided folks to the nearest survival point? The article mentions there were frequent wells and encampments, but so few other details
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > The article mentions there were frequent wells and encampments They aren't arguing that wells were dug to support the wall garrison. They're arguing that, because the wall needed to be garrisoned, it could only visit places where there were or could be wells: >> our spatial and ecological analysis demonstrates that the distribution of local resources, such as water and wood, was critical in determining the route of the wall and the placement of associated garrisons and forts. ( https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087 https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/14/5/1087 )
AlotOfReading 1y ago
Are you thinking of the Taklamakan? People wander around the Gobi as a way of life. It's not quite as extreme as you're painting it. In any case, the traditional routes for the northern silk roads passed south of these walls through the Hexi corridor, at least until the Mongol period when many of them rerouted through the Orkhon valley north of the Gobi. Separate from the silk roads, there was a lot of trade/conflict between the northern Chinese states and the various Mongolian polities like the Liao. Managing that was both economically and existentially necessary for the border states like the xixia. Also, nomads usually moved to the tax collectors instead of the other way around. More practical that way.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > Are you thinking of the Taklamakan? People wander around the Gobi as a way of life. It's not quite as extreme as you're painting it. Perhaps, but I'll note that the pictures in the article show the region as being easily that extreme, and the words say this: >> large sections [of the wall] were built near sand dunes that would have acted as additional barriers > Also, nomads usually moved to the tax collectors instead of the other way around. More practical that way. That's different in no way from what I stated above. If you want to tax people crossing the desert, you station the tax collectors at the oases all travelers must visit. If you want to tax nomads showing up to buy tools, you station the tax collectors in the markets they must visit. These are both cases of moving the tax collector to the people being taxed. And in both cases, there's not an alternative. You can't direct the people to go visit the tax collector; they won't follow your instructions. What would be in it for them?
  - AlotOfReading 1y ago
    Perhaps, but I'll note that the pictures in the article show the region as being easily that extreme, and the words say this It's not. The Gobi is filled with marginal seasonal grazing lands, though certain areas are more valuable than others. It's undergone additional desertification in recent centuries as well. That's different in no way from what I stated above. If you want to tax people crossing the desert, you station the tax collectors at the oases all travelers must visit. People in the Gobi, particularly the northern Gobi, don't always (or even usually) travel by way of journeys between oases. That style of travel is more characteristic of silk roads and the deserts to the southwest like the Taklamakan. If you want to tax nomads showing up to buy tools, you station the tax collectors in the markets they must visit. This wall doesn't run through market areas. The markets involved would have been farther south in the tangut heartland, southwest in the hexi corridor, or north in Mongolia proper. "Markets" is also a bit of a misleading term here because the Mongolian side of this trade would have been a diffuse network of nomadic groups rather than people inhabiting fixed cities on a landscape. I'm not emphasizing this for pedantic reasons. This wall is generally thought to have been intended as a very literal manifestation of the boundaries of the state and this whole area is what we call a borderlands. Western xia itself is a bit of a borderland in its entirety, and probably found it pretty useful to lay out a very physical manifestation of their power everyone could see. That's not the only reason something like this would have been built, but it's a relevant one. Medieval states were constantly negotiating the boundaries of power before everyone accepted the modern notion of statehood. Physical walls were a particularly popular way to make that point in what's now China. And in both cases, there's not an alternative. You can't direct the people to go visit the tax collector; they won't follow your instructions. What would be in it for them? The parts you're responding to were speaking more specifically about the mongol period, which I know more about. This particular borderland is a somewhat different place a couple centuries earlier. But anyway, the mistake here is thinking in a modern transactional framework. That's not how (mongol-era) Mongolia worked. Hierarchy was based on personal loyalty networks. A vassal provided loyalty, which could include taxes. Disloyalty was swiftly punished if the lord could, or the loyalty arrangement was renegotiated to something more agreeable. If it sounds like a fragile way to run a continent-spanning empire, you've identified one of the issues the Mongols faced Similar things existed outside Mongolia as well, but Wikipedia's going to be as good or better than what I know on the subject.
smogcutter 1y ago
If only you could go back and tell them what a waste those walls are! I’m sure the Mongolians would value your expertise.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  I'm not criticizing the Mongols ("Mongolians"?) for building a pointless "line up here" wall. I'm pointing out that that's not something they did, and criticizing jpollock for suggesting it was.
  - smogcutter 1y ago
    > I'm pointing out that that's not something they did Well that settles it then!
    - Larrikin 1y ago
      Source?