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16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not small children and usually capable of saying no. You can't generalize the ability to say no to 16 year olds.

by dfxm12 1y ago

16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not small children and usually capable of saying no. You can't generalize the ability to say no to 16 year olds. You also can't ignore the position of power a famous person might be in, or what grooming might have occurred (which is being alleged up thread). Morally, I hope this is obvious. Even legally, many jurisdictions have laws that recognize these nonviolent sexual offenses as illegal.

lukan 1y ago
If a 16 year old cannot say no to unwanted advances, I would say education failed him very much in the first place. "You also can't ignore the position of power a famous person might be in" And no, I don't. I am also not a fan of grownup men going after boys in general. Still, I do see a difference in men going after 16 year or 8 year old boys and how they approached them. "horror story" is pretty strong language and implies certain things to me. Precise use of language matters. Case in point, I am at a unconventional gathering right now and things happened, that were communicated as rape... so people wanted to take drastic action quickly. What happened? A "tantra" teacher giving massages and "solving blockages" of young (adult) women in their genital areas. So they said yes to a massage and "healing" in general, but never said no afterwards, they just didn't realized what was happening. They met later and shared their stories and then things came to light. So, definitely sexual abuse, but rape? Well their body was raped in a way as sexual things happened that they did not consent to. But the right term here is rather sexual abuse I believe. Because to me and most others, rape implies penetrating with the penis against their will. If you use the most strong word for everything, what word will you use for actual violent forced sex? That just creates confusion that can has drastic consequences. (As it did, with people wanting to take drastic violent action assuming something way worse. In the end the guy was banished, but no criminal charges were brought up as that would have required the victims going to police which they didn't wanted to).
- wahnfrieden 1y ago
  Can we please not advocate in defense of statutory rape of minors here. Your discussion is consideration of defense of a predator's documented acts. He gets plenty of whitewashing support already.
  - lukan 1y ago
    Can you show, where exactly I supposedly did that? Otherwise please don't make such a claim about me.
    - Forgeties79 1y ago
      This is a disingenuous request. We can point to any sentence we think illustrates it and you will simply say “no that is not what it means” and we’re right back where we started. The other person (and I) believe what you wrote whitewashes the issue. You obviously think it does not. There is nothing we can point to that would make you go “oh damn you’re right.“
      - lukan 1y ago
        So I should just accept the defamation that I justified child abuse? Because I did not. My whole point the whole time was and is, that there is a big difference to me between grown men going after 16 year olds and 8 year olds. Is it the same to you?
- mmooss 1y ago
  > Still, I do see a difference in men going after 16 year or 8 year old boys and how they approached them. Agreed. > If a 16 year old cannot say no to unwanted advances, I would say education failed him very much in the first place. It's not a matter of education. Mature adults have trouble saying no (to all sorts of things) depending on the social situation, and the power relationship is a significant factor, which weighs against 16 year olds who not only have little power but are raised to trust and obey adults. Look at all the people who couldn't say 'no' to their institution supporting rapists. Consider adult female soldiers, for whom sexual assault is a relatively widespread problem (at least in the US military).
throaway1988 1y ago
This is the difference between being attracted to prepubescents, and being attracted to minors who have undergone puberty: Prepubescents do not have the physical sexual maturity that human beings should be attracted to. By definition. Being attracted to them shows a profound disturbance in normal brain function. Being attracted to a 16 or 17 year old shows much, much less deviation from normal human sexual behaviour. Again, by definition. Going through puberty = becoming sexually mature. Now, notice how i said “being attracted to” not “hanging around the local school trying to pick up minors.” It’s illegal for a reason. Kids need to be protected from much older adults who know how to exploit and abuse them.
- impossiblefork 1y ago
  Maybe if you only look at them, but once you hear them speak you know they're kids and any attraction goes away. Same with university students. Just listen to them talk for a minute and you won't attracted to them. Even better, let them have a presentation about maths or some project they've done. You can sit there and attempt to keep a polite face and not cover your eyes. It doesn't matter how smart they are, at least usually: even the smarts ones are still kids and therefore completely crazy.

by dfxm12 1y ago

lukan 1y ago

If a 16 year old cannot say no to unwanted advances, I would say education failed him very much in the first place. "You also can't ignore the position of power a famous person might be in" And no, I don't. I am also not a fan of grownup men going after boys in general. Still, I do see a difference in men going after 16 year or 8 year old boys and how they approached them. "horror story" is pretty strong language and implies certain things to me. Precise use of language matters. Case in point, I am at a unconventional gathering right now and things happened, that were communicated as rape... so people wanted to take drastic action quickly. What happened? A "tantra" teacher giving massages and "solving blockages" of young (adult) women in their genital areas. So they said yes to a massage and "healing" in general, but never said no afterwards, they just didn't realized what was happening. They met later and shared their stories and then things came to light. So, definitely sexual abuse, but rape? Well their body was raped in a way as sexual things happened that they did not consent to. But the right term here is rather sexual abuse I believe. Because to me and most others, rape implies penetrating with the penis against their will. If you use the most strong word for everything, what word will you use for actual violent forced sex? That just creates confusion that can has drastic consequences. (As it did, with people wanting to take drastic violent action assuming something way worse. In the end the guy was banished, but no criminal charges were brought up as that would have required the victims going to police which they didn't wanted to).

wahnfrieden 1y ago
Can we please not advocate in defense of statutory rape of minors here. Your discussion is consideration of defense of a predator's documented acts. He gets plenty of whitewashing support already.
- lukan 1y ago
  Can you show, where exactly I supposedly did that? Otherwise please don't make such a claim about me.
  - Forgeties79 1y ago
    This is a disingenuous request. We can point to any sentence we think illustrates it and you will simply say “no that is not what it means” and we’re right back where we started. The other person (and I) believe what you wrote whitewashes the issue. You obviously think it does not. There is nothing we can point to that would make you go “oh damn you’re right.“
    - lukan 1y ago
      So I should just accept the defamation that I justified child abuse? Because I did not. My whole point the whole time was and is, that there is a big difference to me between grown men going after 16 year olds and 8 year olds. Is it the same to you?
mmooss 1y ago
> Still, I do see a difference in men going after 16 year or 8 year old boys and how they approached them. Agreed. > If a 16 year old cannot say no to unwanted advances, I would say education failed him very much in the first place. It's not a matter of education. Mature adults have trouble saying no (to all sorts of things) depending on the social situation, and the power relationship is a significant factor, which weighs against 16 year olds who not only have little power but are raised to trust and obey adults. Look at all the people who couldn't say 'no' to their institution supporting rapists. Consider adult female soldiers, for whom sexual assault is a relatively widespread problem (at least in the US military).

throaway1988 1y ago

This is the difference between being attracted to prepubescents, and being attracted to minors who have undergone puberty: Prepubescents do not have the physical sexual maturity that human beings should be attracted to. By definition. Being attracted to them shows a profound disturbance in normal brain function. Being attracted to a 16 or 17 year old shows much, much less deviation from normal human sexual behaviour. Again, by definition. Going through puberty = becoming sexually mature. Now, notice how i said “being attracted to” not “hanging around the local school trying to pick up minors.” It’s illegal for a reason. Kids need to be protected from much older adults who know how to exploit and abuse them.

impossiblefork 1y ago
Maybe if you only look at them, but once you hear them speak you know they're kids and any attraction goes away. Same with university students. Just listen to them talk for a minute and you won't attracted to them. Even better, let them have a presentation about maths or some project they've done. You can sit there and attempt to keep a polite face and not cover your eyes. It doesn't matter how smart they are, at least usually: even the smarts ones are still kids and therefore completely crazy.