4 ms·

Both marriage and job contracts are mutually binding legal agreements. You have the agency within those dynamics that the law gives you, which varies by region/

Both marriage and job contracts are mutually binding legal agreements. You have the agency within those dynamics that the law gives you, which varies by region/jurisdiction respectively. Your partner in some (most?) cases can absolutely make an executive decision that ends your marriage, with you having no options but to accept the outcome. Your argument falls a little flat.

great_wubwub 1y ago
I'm not sure where you live, but employee contracts in the US are very rare in tech. Unions, execs, and rock stars - that's about it. The rest of us are at-will and disposable. Worker protections in the US are limited to "the machine can't eat more than two of your fingers per day" and "you can't work people more than 168 hours in a week".
- EgregiousCube 1y ago
  When you sign your offer letter, you're entering into an employment contract. What you're describing is regulatory limitations on what that contract can say, and how different contracts can have different terms.
  - onraglanroad 1y ago
    Now from what you've said I think they might be right. You don't get a full contract that you sign that details your job, leave entitlement etc in the US?
    - EgregiousCube 1y ago
      We get that - it’s generally right there on the offer letter, often supplemented by a handbook that it refers to.
      - onraglanroad 1y ago
        I don't get it. Do you sign an offer letter or a contract? So the normal routine here is you get an offer, if you accept you get sent a contract which is signed by the employer, if it's all ok you also sign and then you get your start date. Is it different in the US or the same?
        EgregiousCube 1y ago
        An offer becomes a contract once accepted - this is afaik consistent across the entire (western?) world. It’s perhaps customary in some places to have additional paperwork in the negotiation phase?
        mh- 1y ago
        Exactly how it works in the US, yes.
    - acuozzo 1y ago
      Unless it's a contracting or union position, what you get is something resembling a contract, but your agreement to it comes with the mutual understanding between you and your employer that no effective enforcement body exists to uphold your interests. If it says "you work 40 hours per week and have 4 weeks of paid vacation" and your employer, EVEN IN WRITING, compels you to work 60 hour weeks and not take any vacation at a later date, then your only real option is to find work elsewhere. The Department of Labor won't have your back and you likely won't have enough money to afford a lawyer to fight on your behalf longer than the corporate lawyers your company has on staff. Many programmers don't get treated this way because of the market, but abusive treatment of employees runs rampant in blue collar professions. Need proof? Look at how few UNPAID weeks of maternity leave new mothers are entitled to under the law. This should tell you everything you need to know. I have personally seen women return to work LESS THAN A WEEK after delivering a baby because they couldn't afford to not do so.
      - onraglanroad 1y ago
        Oh I'm aware workers in the US are treated extremely badly. In the UK statutory maternity pay is 90% of full salary for the first 6 weeks and around $250 a week for the next 33 weeks. But I was just trying to clarify if work contracts were a normal thing there. The original post said they weren't where you seem to be saying they are, but effectively unenforceable.
  - thekevan 1y ago
    Most states in the US have at will employment. That means from the moment you sign the contract, they can fire you at will. So it's like a contract that ends straight away after it starts.
- onraglanroad 1y ago
  > employee contracts in the US are very rare in tech Is that true? I've never had a job where I didn't sign a contract (in the UK and for multinationals including American companies). I wouldn't start without a contract. And I'm not in any rockstar position. It's bog standard for employees.
  - brookst 1y ago
    Do these contracts provide guarantees to you, or just to the employer? In the US it is entirely one sided and provides no protection from arbitrarily being fired without cause.
    - onraglanroad 1y ago
      There are statutory rights that you have anyway, such as for a full time position you are entitled to 28 days leave, so the contract normally covers extra stuff (so I have 33 days under my current one). Plus it covers things like disciplinary procedures, working hours etc. It's really weird to me that you don't have that. Are you sure it's normal? To address your specific point, you can mostly be fired without reason if you're a new employee. You get more rights after 2 years so companies generally have a procedure to go through after that. You can always appeal to an employment tribunal but they won't take much notice if you've been there a couple of months and got fired for not doing your job.
  - great_wubwub 1y ago
    > It's bog standard for employees...in the UK and for multinationals including American companies ^^^ that's the thing. Contracts are by country, not by company ownership. I worked for an F100 multinational US-based company for many years. My coworkers in the EU (including the UK at the time) got contracts. A buddy who was a bona fide rock star in the US got one. I know VPs got them. I got nothing, as did the vast, vast majority of my US-based friends. And while I'm not a rock star, I'm pretty well known within my niche and am not a bottom-feeder. It really is as bleak as you might fear.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > I'm not sure where you live, but employee contracts in the US are very rare in tech. Single integrated written employment contracts are rare in the US for any but the most elite workers (usually executives); US workers more often have a mix of more limited domain written agreements and possibly an implied employment contract.
Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
I think I have discovered gold in the comments Someone makes a comment about how its okay for things to be replaced in specialization in business Then someone equates it to intimacy Then someone says its only possible in HN Then we get into some nifty discussion of can we argue about the similarity between marriage and job contracts and first they disagree Now we come to your comment which I can kinda agree about and here is my take Marriage and business both require some definition of laws and a trust in state which comes out of how state has a monopoly (well legal monopoly) over violence and how it can punish people who don't follow laws over it and how the past record of it handling cases have been As an example, I doubt how marriages can be a good mutually binding legal agreement in something like saudi arabia which is mysognistic. Same can be said for exploitations in businesses for countries, same countries like saudia arabia and qatar have some people from south asia like india etc. in a sort of legal slavery where they are forced to reside in their own designated quarters of the country and they are insanely restricted. Look it up. Also off topic but I asked LLM's to find countries where divorce for women are illegal and I confirmed it, as an example, divorce in philipines for non muslims are banned (muslim woman's divorces are handled via sharia law) I have since fact checked it as well via searching but it's just that divorce itself isn't an option in philipines but rather limiting marital dissolution to annulment or legal separation "In the Philippines, the general legal framework under the Family Code prohibits absolute divorce for the majority of the population, limiting marital dissolution to annulment or legal separation " [1] [1]: source: https://www.respicio.ph/commentaries/divorce-under-muslim-personal-laws-in-the-philippines-process-and-requirements https://www.respicio.ph/commentaries/divorce-under-muslim-pe...
thekevan 1y ago
>...job contracts are mutually binding legal agreements. That is not true far more often than it is true.

great_wubwub 1y ago

I'm not sure where you live, but employee contracts in the US are very rare in tech. Unions, execs, and rock stars - that's about it. The rest of us are at-will and disposable. Worker protections in the US are limited to "the machine can't eat more than two of your fingers per day" and "you can't work people more than 168 hours in a week".

EgregiousCube 1y ago
When you sign your offer letter, you're entering into an employment contract. What you're describing is regulatory limitations on what that contract can say, and how different contracts can have different terms.
- onraglanroad 1y ago
  Now from what you've said I think they might be right. You don't get a full contract that you sign that details your job, leave entitlement etc in the US?
  - EgregiousCube 1y ago
    We get that - it’s generally right there on the offer letter, often supplemented by a handbook that it refers to.
    - onraglanroad 1y ago
      I don't get it. Do you sign an offer letter or a contract? So the normal routine here is you get an offer, if you accept you get sent a contract which is signed by the employer, if it's all ok you also sign and then you get your start date. Is it different in the US or the same?
      - EgregiousCube 1y ago
        An offer becomes a contract once accepted - this is afaik consistent across the entire (western?) world. It’s perhaps customary in some places to have additional paperwork in the negotiation phase?
      - mh- 1y ago
        Exactly how it works in the US, yes.
  - acuozzo 1y ago
    Unless it's a contracting or union position, what you get is something resembling a contract, but your agreement to it comes with the mutual understanding between you and your employer that no effective enforcement body exists to uphold your interests. If it says "you work 40 hours per week and have 4 weeks of paid vacation" and your employer, EVEN IN WRITING, compels you to work 60 hour weeks and not take any vacation at a later date, then your only real option is to find work elsewhere. The Department of Labor won't have your back and you likely won't have enough money to afford a lawyer to fight on your behalf longer than the corporate lawyers your company has on staff. Many programmers don't get treated this way because of the market, but abusive treatment of employees runs rampant in blue collar professions. Need proof? Look at how few UNPAID weeks of maternity leave new mothers are entitled to under the law. This should tell you everything you need to know. I have personally seen women return to work LESS THAN A WEEK after delivering a baby because they couldn't afford to not do so.
    - onraglanroad 1y ago
      Oh I'm aware workers in the US are treated extremely badly. In the UK statutory maternity pay is 90% of full salary for the first 6 weeks and around $250 a week for the next 33 weeks. But I was just trying to clarify if work contracts were a normal thing there. The original post said they weren't where you seem to be saying they are, but effectively unenforceable.
- thekevan 1y ago
  Most states in the US have at will employment. That means from the moment you sign the contract, they can fire you at will. So it's like a contract that ends straight away after it starts.
onraglanroad 1y ago
> employee contracts in the US are very rare in tech Is that true? I've never had a job where I didn't sign a contract (in the UK and for multinationals including American companies). I wouldn't start without a contract. And I'm not in any rockstar position. It's bog standard for employees.
- brookst 1y ago
  Do these contracts provide guarantees to you, or just to the employer? In the US it is entirely one sided and provides no protection from arbitrarily being fired without cause.
  - onraglanroad 1y ago
    There are statutory rights that you have anyway, such as for a full time position you are entitled to 28 days leave, so the contract normally covers extra stuff (so I have 33 days under my current one). Plus it covers things like disciplinary procedures, working hours etc. It's really weird to me that you don't have that. Are you sure it's normal? To address your specific point, you can mostly be fired without reason if you're a new employee. You get more rights after 2 years so companies generally have a procedure to go through after that. You can always appeal to an employment tribunal but they won't take much notice if you've been there a couple of months and got fired for not doing your job.
- great_wubwub 1y ago
  > It's bog standard for employees...in the UK and for multinationals including American companies ^^^ that's the thing. Contracts are by country, not by company ownership. I worked for an F100 multinational US-based company for many years. My coworkers in the EU (including the UK at the time) got contracts. A buddy who was a bona fide rock star in the US got one. I know VPs got them. I got nothing, as did the vast, vast majority of my US-based friends. And while I'm not a rock star, I'm pretty well known within my niche and am not a bottom-feeder. It really is as bleak as you might fear.
dragonwriter 1y ago
> I'm not sure where you live, but employee contracts in the US are very rare in tech. Single integrated written employment contracts are rare in the US for any but the most elite workers (usually executives); US workers more often have a mix of more limited domain written agreements and possibly an implied employment contract.

Imustaskforhelp 1y ago

I think I have discovered gold in the comments Someone makes a comment about how its okay for things to be replaced in specialization in business Then someone equates it to intimacy Then someone says its only possible in HN Then we get into some nifty discussion of can we argue about the similarity between marriage and job contracts and first they disagree Now we come to your comment which I can kinda agree about and here is my take Marriage and business both require some definition of laws and a trust in state which comes out of how state has a monopoly (well legal monopoly) over violence and how it can punish people who don't follow laws over it and how the past record of it handling cases have been As an example, I doubt how marriages can be a good mutually binding legal agreement in something like saudi arabia which is mysognistic. Same can be said for exploitations in businesses for countries, same countries like saudia arabia and qatar have some people from south asia like india etc. in a sort of legal slavery where they are forced to reside in their own designated quarters of the country and they are insanely restricted. Look it up. Also off topic but I asked LLM's to find countries where divorce for women are illegal and I confirmed it, as an example, divorce in philipines for non muslims are banned (muslim woman's divorces are handled via sharia law) I have since fact checked it as well via searching but it's just that divorce itself isn't an option in philipines but rather limiting marital dissolution to annulment or legal separation "In the Philippines, the general legal framework under the Family Code prohibits absolute divorce for the majority of the population, limiting marital dissolution to annulment or legal separation " [1] [1]: source: https://www.respicio.ph/commentaries/divorce-under-muslim-personal-laws-in-the-philippines-process-and-requirements https://www.respicio.ph/commentaries/divorce-under-muslim-pe...

thekevan 1y ago

>...job contracts are mutually binding legal agreements. That is not true far more often than it is true.