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German Wikipedia conveniently left that part out and in the english Wikipedia you have to scroll quite a bit to read it mentioned. "I said I've had many young

by lukan 1y ago

German Wikipedia conveniently left that part out and in the english Wikipedia you have to scroll quite a bit to read it mentioned. "I said I've had many young affairs, [with those who were] 16, 17, or 18." Still, it matters a bit to me, whether we are talking about consensual things or not. 16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not small children and usually capable of saying no. (Body language no, is also a no). So do those horror stories involve ignoring a "no" from Ginsberg towards a minor?

Forgeties79 1y ago
I’m not sure this is the kind of debate you want to have.
- lukan 1y ago
  Oh, I certainly don‘t want to debate what counts as abuse. I just like to form an opinion on Ginsberg, so some clarification what exactly "horror stories" mean here, would be helpful.
- throaway1988 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Forgeties79 1y ago
    I am not debating what counts as child sexual abuse with you. I also doubt this is a hill you want to die on.
    - throaway1988 1y ago
      who said i’m debating anything? there are actual terms for these things you know.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - justinator 1y ago
    Ginsberg was a member of the North American Man/BOY Love Association. Why are you defending this man? What if we said he sexually exploited teenagers when he was in his 50's -- is that better?
    - throaway1988 1y ago
      i’m not! you are immediately accusing people of supporting child abuse based on literally nothing.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
dfxm12 1y ago
16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not small children and usually capable of saying no. You can't generalize the ability to say no to 16 year olds. You also can't ignore the position of power a famous person might be in, or what grooming might have occurred (which is being alleged up thread). Morally, I hope this is obvious. Even legally, many jurisdictions have laws that recognize these nonviolent sexual offenses as illegal.
- lukan 1y ago
  If a 16 year old cannot say no to unwanted advances, I would say education failed him very much in the first place. "You also can't ignore the position of power a famous person might be in" And no, I don't. I am also not a fan of grownup men going after boys in general. Still, I do see a difference in men going after 16 year or 8 year old boys and how they approached them. "horror story" is pretty strong language and implies certain things to me. Precise use of language matters. Case in point, I am at a unconventional gathering right now and things happened, that were communicated as rape... so people wanted to take drastic action quickly. What happened? A "tantra" teacher giving massages and "solving blockages" of young (adult) women in their genital areas. So they said yes to a massage and "healing" in general, but never said no afterwards, they just didn't realized what was happening. They met later and shared their stories and then things came to light. So, definitely sexual abuse, but rape? Well their body was raped in a way as sexual things happened that they did not consent to. But the right term here is rather sexual abuse I believe. Because to me and most others, rape implies penetrating with the penis against their will. If you use the most strong word for everything, what word will you use for actual violent forced sex? That just creates confusion that can has drastic consequences. (As it did, with people wanting to take drastic violent action assuming something way worse. In the end the guy was banished, but no criminal charges were brought up as that would have required the victims going to police which they didn't wanted to).
  - wahnfrieden 1y ago
    Can we please not advocate in defense of statutory rape of minors here. Your discussion is consideration of defense of a predator's documented acts. He gets plenty of whitewashing support already.
justinator 1y ago
>16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not small children and usually capable of saying no. (Body language no, is also a no). So do those horror stories involve ignoring a "no" from Ginsberg towards a minor? Bruh you're justifying statutory rape due to a highly unjust power imbalance. Also have you met a 16-year-old in real life? They are children.
- lukan 1y ago
  I am not justifying anything, I merely said there is a difference to me and I like to know more before forming a final opinion, see my shared anecdota as for why. The post above where I replied literally said: "young male children" But are 16 year olds really "young male children"? I don't think so, but stating it like this makes it a much, much worse accusation against Ginsberg in my eyes.
  - Forgeties79 1y ago
    I can’t believe what I’m reading in this thread.
    - wahnfrieden 1y ago
      It's disgusting
- t-3 1y ago
  16 is the age of consent in most of the US (by land area at least). Not that US laws around sex are necessarily good policy, but it reflects that there is no broad societal consensus on whether or not the 16-year-olds have the ability to consent.
  - justinator 1y ago
    If I -- someone in their mid 40's -- had a friend my age who had a string of sex partners that were are 16, 17, 18 and gained access to those individuals through a network constructed from fame and friends, they would cease to be my friend because that is pretty disgusting, laws be-damned. (and you seem to not factor in that many statutory rape laws have age gap determinants) But I see that you are different.
EA-3167 1y ago
This is such a worthless and pedantic hill to die on, and one that seems to reveal a profound lack of empathy. Not everyone comes from the same background, not everyone had a good start free from abuse, and some 16 year olds are far more vulnerable legally, societally, and mentally than even their slightly older peers. With the benefit of being quite a bit older I’m increasingly struck by just how young and frankly childlike teens are. The age of consent isn’t perfect, it’s a compromise and an exercise in drawing lines, but that doesn’t make it worthless or indicate that you should “well actually” people who are abusing them. Why not read Virginia Giuffre’s book about her experiences for more insight into something you should frankly listen and learn about a lot more before you lecture.
- lukan 1y ago
  I might have underestimated the trigger potential here, but can you state, where I did "lecture" anything or anyone here? The original claim was, Ginsberg went after "young male children". Sounds very, very bad. Wikipedia said so far the youngest was 16. Still bad, but not as bad in my opinion. So, to form my opinion after the initial accusation I requested more information. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not all the same to me.
  - EA-3167 1y ago
    You might have underestimated the degree to which defending child abusers might upset people? That strikes me as remarkable, given that it’s arguably the most famously flammable topic short of intrareligious conflict.
    - lukan 1y ago
      "You might have underestimated the degree to which defending child abusers might upset people?" I underestimated how quickly people even here will engage in dishonest tactics like this. Anyone requesting fair trial for the witch is automatically a witch itself that should be burned as well. That is not a climate where you can find out truth, but activly preventing it through invoking fear. The fact that Ginsberg was involved with NAMBLA is creepy enough for me, to not wanting to engage with his works btw. and I did not so much defended him, but the concept that 16 year olds are not small children anymore. Still children, yes, but not "young children". There are 16 year olds who started a family already. Not ideal, sure, but putting all those in the same bucket as 8 year olds?

by lukan 1y ago

Forgeties79 1y ago

I’m not sure this is the kind of debate you want to have.

lukan 1y ago
Oh, I certainly don‘t want to debate what counts as abuse. I just like to form an opinion on Ginsberg, so some clarification what exactly "horror stories" mean here, would be helpful.
throaway1988 1y ago
[flagged]
- Forgeties79 1y ago
  I am not debating what counts as child sexual abuse with you. I also doubt this is a hill you want to die on.
  - throaway1988 1y ago
    who said i’m debating anything? there are actual terms for these things you know.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- justinator 1y ago
  Ginsberg was a member of the North American Man/BOY Love Association. Why are you defending this man? What if we said he sexually exploited teenagers when he was in his 50's -- is that better?
  - throaway1988 1y ago
    i’m not! you are immediately accusing people of supporting child abuse based on literally nothing.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

dfxm12 1y ago

16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not small children and usually capable of saying no. You can't generalize the ability to say no to 16 year olds. You also can't ignore the position of power a famous person might be in, or what grooming might have occurred (which is being alleged up thread). Morally, I hope this is obvious. Even legally, many jurisdictions have laws that recognize these nonviolent sexual offenses as illegal.

lukan 1y ago
If a 16 year old cannot say no to unwanted advances, I would say education failed him very much in the first place. "You also can't ignore the position of power a famous person might be in" And no, I don't. I am also not a fan of grownup men going after boys in general. Still, I do see a difference in men going after 16 year or 8 year old boys and how they approached them. "horror story" is pretty strong language and implies certain things to me. Precise use of language matters. Case in point, I am at a unconventional gathering right now and things happened, that were communicated as rape... so people wanted to take drastic action quickly. What happened? A "tantra" teacher giving massages and "solving blockages" of young (adult) women in their genital areas. So they said yes to a massage and "healing" in general, but never said no afterwards, they just didn't realized what was happening. They met later and shared their stories and then things came to light. So, definitely sexual abuse, but rape? Well their body was raped in a way as sexual things happened that they did not consent to. But the right term here is rather sexual abuse I believe. Because to me and most others, rape implies penetrating with the penis against their will. If you use the most strong word for everything, what word will you use for actual violent forced sex? That just creates confusion that can has drastic consequences. (As it did, with people wanting to take drastic violent action assuming something way worse. In the end the guy was banished, but no criminal charges were brought up as that would have required the victims going to police which they didn't wanted to).
- wahnfrieden 1y ago
  Can we please not advocate in defense of statutory rape of minors here. Your discussion is consideration of defense of a predator's documented acts. He gets plenty of whitewashing support already.

justinator 1y ago

>16 year olds might be naive, but they are also not small children and usually capable of saying no. (Body language no, is also a no). So do those horror stories involve ignoring a "no" from Ginsberg towards a minor? Bruh you're justifying statutory rape due to a highly unjust power imbalance. Also have you met a 16-year-old in real life? They are children.

lukan 1y ago
I am not justifying anything, I merely said there is a difference to me and I like to know more before forming a final opinion, see my shared anecdota as for why. The post above where I replied literally said: "young male children" But are 16 year olds really "young male children"? I don't think so, but stating it like this makes it a much, much worse accusation against Ginsberg in my eyes.
- Forgeties79 1y ago
  I can’t believe what I’m reading in this thread.
  - wahnfrieden 1y ago
    It's disgusting
t-3 1y ago
16 is the age of consent in most of the US (by land area at least). Not that US laws around sex are necessarily good policy, but it reflects that there is no broad societal consensus on whether or not the 16-year-olds have the ability to consent.
- justinator 1y ago
  If I -- someone in their mid 40's -- had a friend my age who had a string of sex partners that were are 16, 17, 18 and gained access to those individuals through a network constructed from fame and friends, they would cease to be my friend because that is pretty disgusting, laws be-damned. (and you seem to not factor in that many statutory rape laws have age gap determinants) But I see that you are different.

EA-3167 1y ago

This is such a worthless and pedantic hill to die on, and one that seems to reveal a profound lack of empathy. Not everyone comes from the same background, not everyone had a good start free from abuse, and some 16 year olds are far more vulnerable legally, societally, and mentally than even their slightly older peers. With the benefit of being quite a bit older I’m increasingly struck by just how young and frankly childlike teens are. The age of consent isn’t perfect, it’s a compromise and an exercise in drawing lines, but that doesn’t make it worthless or indicate that you should “well actually” people who are abusing them. Why not read Virginia Giuffre’s book about her experiences for more insight into something you should frankly listen and learn about a lot more before you lecture.

lukan 1y ago
I might have underestimated the trigger potential here, but can you state, where I did "lecture" anything or anyone here? The original claim was, Ginsberg went after "young male children". Sounds very, very bad. Wikipedia said so far the youngest was 16. Still bad, but not as bad in my opinion. So, to form my opinion after the initial accusation I requested more information. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not all the same to me.
- EA-3167 1y ago
  You might have underestimated the degree to which defending child abusers might upset people? That strikes me as remarkable, given that it’s arguably the most famously flammable topic short of intrareligious conflict.
  - lukan 1y ago
    "You might have underestimated the degree to which defending child abusers might upset people?" I underestimated how quickly people even here will engage in dishonest tactics like this. Anyone requesting fair trial for the witch is automatically a witch itself that should be burned as well. That is not a climate where you can find out truth, but activly preventing it through invoking fear. The fact that Ginsberg was involved with NAMBLA is creepy enough for me, to not wanting to engage with his works btw. and I did not so much defended him, but the concept that 16 year olds are not small children anymore. Still children, yes, but not "young children". There are 16 year olds who started a family already. Not ideal, sure, but putting all those in the same bucket as 8 year olds?