4 ms·

Sodium batteries are finally catching up

27 points by tromp 1y ago

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
> The current research advances sodium as a viable alternative for batteries, a vital step to combat the rarity and environmental damage of lithium. It's one of many steps ahead. Curious what some of the many steps ahead are. Seems like these articles about battery breakthroughs WRT non-lithium chemistries come out frequently, but nothing ever seems to come to fruition, and lithium still dominates. Just want to know why all these breakthroughs never make it to industrial scale.
- theragra 1y ago
  From my limited research, sodium batteries are somewhat commonly used in Chinese EV.
cultofmetatron 1y ago
Even if sodium ion batteries have a quarter the energy density of lithium, they are still a massive win for grid scale storage. Honestly don't know why there's such a push for them in EVs when lithium works fine there. The cost benefit of sodium ion really makes a lot more sense when you can just drop a bunch of them on a lot of land and have it essentially be a reserve of power for a municipality.
- hyghjiyhu 1y ago
  What are your thoughts on sodium batteries vs water electrolysis for grid scale?
  - cultofmetatron 1y ago
    water electrolysis is mind numbingly inefficient + you still have the hydrogen embrittlement problem. Additionally, you then also need a hydrogen fuel cell which relies on some pretty expensive materials like paladium. Lithium ion batteries already are a better fit for small scale grid storage since all you need is the battery and a power management system. Sodium even if its not as good as lithium for density will still be a much better fit for the vast majority of use cases than electrolysis from a maintence and power efficiency perspective.
- chris222 1y ago
  The safety aspect of them is probably more important than in grid storage. Also the performance at colder temps.
- ianburrell 1y ago
  Sodium doesn't make sense for vehicles when there are safer lithium chemistries like LiFePO4 that have lower density than the combustible ones but better than sodium. LiFePO4, and presumably sodium-ion, can burn once ignited but should be hard to get started.
jerf 1y ago
The tech is hitting the market now: https://www.bluettipower.com/products/sodium-ion-battery-pioneer-na https://www.bluettipower.com/products/sodium-ion-battery-pio... YouTube has some reviews if you're interested. They're out in the wild now. Not being in the industry, I was a bit surprised when YouTube randomly popped up some recommendation about that. I didn't realize it was that far along.
- theragra 1y ago
  You can also buy cells directly from china. I found this store, which seems somewhat reliable https://hakadibattery.com/collections/sodium-ion-battery-cells-3v https://hakadibattery.com/collections/sodium-ion-battery-cel...
Havoc 1y ago
Keen to use them for hobby purposes. The idea of DIY soldering and lithium has never appealed from a safety pov
- theragra 1y ago
  Lithium has several much safer chemistries then we use in phones. LTO for example, or LiFePo4
theragra 1y ago
I've recently wondered, can you buy consumer sodium cells. Apparently, the only way is to order from china directly. These seem to look more trustworthy (did not order yet) https://hakadibattery.com/collections/sodium-ion-battery-cells-3v https://hakadibattery.com/collections/sodium-ion-battery-cel...

27 points by tromp 1y ago

> The current research advances sodium as a viable alternative for batteries, a vital step to combat the rarity and environmental damage of lithium. It's one of many steps ahead. Curious what some of the many steps ahead are. Seems like these articles about battery breakthroughs WRT non-lithium chemistries come out frequently, but nothing ever seems to come to fruition, and lithium still dominates. Just want to know why all these breakthroughs never make it to industrial scale.

theragra 1y ago
From my limited research, sodium batteries are somewhat commonly used in Chinese EV.

cultofmetatron 1y ago

Even if sodium ion batteries have a quarter the energy density of lithium, they are still a massive win for grid scale storage. Honestly don't know why there's such a push for them in EVs when lithium works fine there. The cost benefit of sodium ion really makes a lot more sense when you can just drop a bunch of them on a lot of land and have it essentially be a reserve of power for a municipality.

hyghjiyhu 1y ago
What are your thoughts on sodium batteries vs water electrolysis for grid scale?
- cultofmetatron 1y ago
  water electrolysis is mind numbingly inefficient + you still have the hydrogen embrittlement problem. Additionally, you then also need a hydrogen fuel cell which relies on some pretty expensive materials like paladium. Lithium ion batteries already are a better fit for small scale grid storage since all you need is the battery and a power management system. Sodium even if its not as good as lithium for density will still be a much better fit for the vast majority of use cases than electrolysis from a maintence and power efficiency perspective.
chris222 1y ago
The safety aspect of them is probably more important than in grid storage. Also the performance at colder temps.
ianburrell 1y ago
Sodium doesn't make sense for vehicles when there are safer lithium chemistries like LiFePO4 that have lower density than the combustible ones but better than sodium. LiFePO4, and presumably sodium-ion, can burn once ignited but should be hard to get started.

jerf 1y ago

The tech is hitting the market now: https://www.bluettipower.com/products/sodium-ion-battery-pioneer-na https://www.bluettipower.com/products/sodium-ion-battery-pio... YouTube has some reviews if you're interested. They're out in the wild now. Not being in the industry, I was a bit surprised when YouTube randomly popped up some recommendation about that. I didn't realize it was that far along.

theragra 1y ago
You can also buy cells directly from china. I found this store, which seems somewhat reliable https://hakadibattery.com/collections/sodium-ion-battery-cells-3v https://hakadibattery.com/collections/sodium-ion-battery-cel...

Havoc 1y ago

Keen to use them for hobby purposes. The idea of DIY soldering and lithium has never appealed from a safety pov

theragra 1y ago
Lithium has several much safer chemistries then we use in phones. LTO for example, or LiFePo4

theragra 1y ago

I've recently wondered, can you buy consumer sodium cells. Apparently, the only way is to order from china directly. These seem to look more trustworthy (did not order yet) https://hakadibattery.com/collections/sodium-ion-battery-cells-3v https://hakadibattery.com/collections/sodium-ion-battery-cel...