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The payoff is the last line: “ If you’ve signed up to offer an attention-luxury good, you undermine it when you also try to make it quick and convenient.” Cult

The payoff is the last line: “ If you’ve signed up to offer an attention-luxury good, you undermine it when you also try to make it quick and convenient.” Culture is also a luxury good, by this definition. If you read the Wikipedia summary of a Shakespeare play, you can fake a basic understanding of the plot. But you’ve gotten the social proof (e.g. dinner-party survival) without the deeper appreciation of the characters and their motivations. As far as that goes, empathy seems to be a borderline luxury good at this point.

FloorEgg 1y ago
It seems that way (re empathy as a luxury) but I don't think it's true. Empathy builds cooperation and biases towards game theory optimal, which increases chances of survival and furniture thriving. It doesn't seem like this right now, because all our luxuries are built on momentum enabled by past empathy. In fact it's the lack of empathy (and curiosity) for others that is causing more suffering and an increasing trend towards lose-lose dynamics, it's just hard to see because the scale across people, time and space is so vast. Like everything else (reality as vibrations), it seems that global empathy oscillates up and down across generations, with a long-term trend upwards. So I don't think empathy is a luxury, empathy enables luxury. It's just hard to see past the silver spoon narcissists and collective victim mentality in the current context. I'm optimistic more empathy is in our future, even if not short or medium term.
- UncleOxidant 1y ago
  Well said. There's an odd suspicion of empathy at this point (even some right-wing Christians calling empathy evil which is really odd considering what the founder of their religion taught). There's so much grievance on all sides that's being fueled by various media outlets and algorithms. Grievance says "I've been uniquely wronged". And it leads to giving up on empathy so as to get even.
  - CGMthrowaway 1y ago
    I suspect your comment references Allie Stuckey, who wrote a book "Toxic Empathy" and was viral in a video with this idea recently.[1] To the unfamiliar reader, her concept of "toxic empathy" can be boiled down thus- -Empathy becomes "toxic" when it encourages a person to affirm sin, validate lies or support destructive policies -Truth over feelings. Biblical love does not blindly affirm an individual's feelings or choices if those choices violate moral truth For a tangible example of these ideas and their connect to the Gospel (what "the founder" taught), watch the video. [1]https://youtu.be/BUjeVodnbzA?t=2978 https://youtu.be/BUjeVodnbzA?t=2978
  - FloorEgg 1y ago
    From what I understand about history (which is just enough to know there's a lot I don't know), it seems that collective victim mentality leads to a rise in authoritarianism. Also yes a hallmark of a victim mentality is a lack of empathy for others. One believes that no one else cares about them, so why should they care about anyone else? It's tragic, but it keeps happening, so maybe it has some bigger picture purpose that's hard to see from an individual's perspective. Doesn't feel great to live through though, and it can get really dark...
  - card_zero 1y ago
    The concept comes from early psychology in the orbit of Freud. It was invented in 1903/1909. It's somewhat mystical and somewhat mechanical, an automatic feeling that we're supposed to have. These days we can be told off for lacking this supposéd thing. I don't like it, quite independently.
    - FloorEgg 1y ago
      Which concept?
      - card_zero 1y ago
        Empathy. It's surprisingly modern. I admit compassion is a similar term and refers to almost the same concept, and I have no issues with that one, but it doesn't carry the same pseudoscientific baggage.
        FloorEgg 1y ago
        Oh interesting, I didn't know this. What I meant was the ability to simulate in one's own mind how someone else would feel about something. Basically an ability to predict an emotional reaction in others. So for example I can empathize with someone who I have to deliver bad news to, and still be an asshole and deliver it harshly, or try my best to soften the blow and deliver it clearly but gently. We can all empathize with each other to an extent, but beyond a limit we need to know more about the other person to increase precision. This is why I mentioned curiosity. For example if I gave you tickets to a football game, but you don't like football, I might predict you will be happy but that would be wrong because you'll feel awkward since you don't like football and I basically just have you an obligation / social problem. Or maybe not because you won't feel uncomfortable saying "no thanks I don't like football", but some people might be super uncomfortable declining a gift like that. So to empathize accurately and precisely we need to know the whole value system of the other person. How does this differ from your view?
        card_zero 1y ago
CGMthrowaway 1y ago
> Culture is also a luxury good, by this definition. Has always been. One of the key ways the upper class defines themselves is by their sensitivity for good taste AKA sensibility[1] (as in "Sense and Sensibility"). Haute couture, fine arts, etc. "Good" taste is of course dynamic, but that's beside the point. [1]An understanding of or ability to decide about what is good or valuable, especially in connection with artistic or social activities. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sensibility https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sensi...
UncleOxidant 1y ago
> As far as that goes, empathy seems to be a borderline luxury good at this point. Empathy isn't optional. It's necessary for a functioning society. The fact that some people are starting to view empathy with suspicion is an indicator of the decline of this one.
- CGMthrowaway 1y ago
  Society is a luxury good (?)
edwin2 1y ago
This last line explains what’s bothered me about the convenient pickup-order trend at restaurants. The whole point of going to a restaurant is luxury. I find myself turned off by restaurants that I loved before but cheapened themselves after covid. I don’t want to eat out of plastic bowls with plastic forks. If this is going to be about efficiency, it is no longer about luxury and I don’t want to do it anymore. Once the focus becomes convenience, the restaurant begins to undermine itself and accidentally starts to complete with more convenient (and cheaper) alternatives like readymade meals at the grocery store or fast food. Edit: I should also add that going to a restaurant with a group of friends, sharing a meal together, and paying attention to one another - this makes restaurants somewhat of an attention luxury good.

FloorEgg 1y ago

It seems that way (re empathy as a luxury) but I don't think it's true. Empathy builds cooperation and biases towards game theory optimal, which increases chances of survival and furniture thriving. It doesn't seem like this right now, because all our luxuries are built on momentum enabled by past empathy. In fact it's the lack of empathy (and curiosity) for others that is causing more suffering and an increasing trend towards lose-lose dynamics, it's just hard to see because the scale across people, time and space is so vast. Like everything else (reality as vibrations), it seems that global empathy oscillates up and down across generations, with a long-term trend upwards. So I don't think empathy is a luxury, empathy enables luxury. It's just hard to see past the silver spoon narcissists and collective victim mentality in the current context. I'm optimistic more empathy is in our future, even if not short or medium term.

UncleOxidant 1y ago
Well said. There's an odd suspicion of empathy at this point (even some right-wing Christians calling empathy evil which is really odd considering what the founder of their religion taught). There's so much grievance on all sides that's being fueled by various media outlets and algorithms. Grievance says "I've been uniquely wronged". And it leads to giving up on empathy so as to get even.
- CGMthrowaway 1y ago
  I suspect your comment references Allie Stuckey, who wrote a book "Toxic Empathy" and was viral in a video with this idea recently.[1] To the unfamiliar reader, her concept of "toxic empathy" can be boiled down thus- -Empathy becomes "toxic" when it encourages a person to affirm sin, validate lies or support destructive policies -Truth over feelings. Biblical love does not blindly affirm an individual's feelings or choices if those choices violate moral truth For a tangible example of these ideas and their connect to the Gospel (what "the founder" taught), watch the video. [1]https://youtu.be/BUjeVodnbzA?t=2978 https://youtu.be/BUjeVodnbzA?t=2978
- FloorEgg 1y ago
  From what I understand about history (which is just enough to know there's a lot I don't know), it seems that collective victim mentality leads to a rise in authoritarianism. Also yes a hallmark of a victim mentality is a lack of empathy for others. One believes that no one else cares about them, so why should they care about anyone else? It's tragic, but it keeps happening, so maybe it has some bigger picture purpose that's hard to see from an individual's perspective. Doesn't feel great to live through though, and it can get really dark...
- card_zero 1y ago
  The concept comes from early psychology in the orbit of Freud. It was invented in 1903/1909. It's somewhat mystical and somewhat mechanical, an automatic feeling that we're supposed to have. These days we can be told off for lacking this supposéd thing. I don't like it, quite independently.
  - FloorEgg 1y ago
    Which concept?
    - card_zero 1y ago
      Empathy. It's surprisingly modern. I admit compassion is a similar term and refers to almost the same concept, and I have no issues with that one, but it doesn't carry the same pseudoscientific baggage.
      - FloorEgg 1y ago
        Oh interesting, I didn't know this. What I meant was the ability to simulate in one's own mind how someone else would feel about something. Basically an ability to predict an emotional reaction in others. So for example I can empathize with someone who I have to deliver bad news to, and still be an asshole and deliver it harshly, or try my best to soften the blow and deliver it clearly but gently. We can all empathize with each other to an extent, but beyond a limit we need to know more about the other person to increase precision. This is why I mentioned curiosity. For example if I gave you tickets to a football game, but you don't like football, I might predict you will be happy but that would be wrong because you'll feel awkward since you don't like football and I basically just have you an obligation / social problem. Or maybe not because you won't feel uncomfortable saying "no thanks I don't like football", but some people might be super uncomfortable declining a gift like that. So to empathize accurately and precisely we need to know the whole value system of the other person. How does this differ from your view?
        card_zero 1y ago

CGMthrowaway 1y ago

> Culture is also a luxury good, by this definition. Has always been. One of the key ways the upper class defines themselves is by their sensitivity for good taste AKA sensibility[1] (as in "Sense and Sensibility"). Haute couture, fine arts, etc. "Good" taste is of course dynamic, but that's beside the point. [1]An understanding of or ability to decide about what is good or valuable, especially in connection with artistic or social activities. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sensibility https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sensi...

UncleOxidant 1y ago

> As far as that goes, empathy seems to be a borderline luxury good at this point. Empathy isn't optional. It's necessary for a functioning society. The fact that some people are starting to view empathy with suspicion is an indicator of the decline of this one.

CGMthrowaway 1y ago
Society is a luxury good (?)

edwin2 1y ago

This last line explains what’s bothered me about the convenient pickup-order trend at restaurants. The whole point of going to a restaurant is luxury. I find myself turned off by restaurants that I loved before but cheapened themselves after covid. I don’t want to eat out of plastic bowls with plastic forks. If this is going to be about efficiency, it is no longer about luxury and I don’t want to do it anymore. Once the focus becomes convenience, the restaurant begins to undermine itself and accidentally starts to complete with more convenient (and cheaper) alternatives like readymade meals at the grocery store or fast food. Edit: I should also add that going to a restaurant with a group of friends, sharing a meal together, and paying attention to one another - this makes restaurants somewhat of an attention luxury good.