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I agree that Dual Citizenship is a dream among a large plurality of Americans, but I don’t think it’s for Visa-free tourism. I think it’s because a growing numb

I agree that Dual Citizenship is a dream among a large plurality of Americans, but I don’t think it’s for Visa-free tourism. I think it’s because a growing number of Americans feel that the country is unstable and likely headed toward a failed-state status.

Forgeties79 1y ago
Been exploring it in my household for sure.
- jghn 1y ago
  Same. It's shifted from an escapist fantasy about getting away from it all to a more literal definition of "escapist fantasy". if it weren't for family & friend ties binding us to our geographical area it'd already be a lot more serious. We're not *that* far from a low end FIRE situation, so a move to a more LCOL country could make a ton of sense and escape ... all of this.
  - Forgeties79 1y ago
    I get a lot of grief for it from a few people but the simple fact is it’s gone from an unthinkable possibility to something I would consider a single-digit- percentage possibility. At that point it feels like something I need to at least be moderately prepared for. Especially as someone in the gulf south. It just doesn’t feel very safe down here anymore. Watching ICE roll through in full equipment on armored vehicles during Mardi Gras this year was a serious wake up call. That’s not the kind of show of force you do for shits and giggles. That’s textbook “send them a message.”
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - sippeangelo 1y ago
    From an EU perspective I would have been out of there in February. But what is it they say, again? "Grass is always browner on the other side"? It also helps being part of a minority that the sitting regime wants to exterminate to the very definition of the word.
    - Forgeties79 1y ago
      It’s not as simple as hopping on a train and leaving. No one in my immediate family has citizenship in another country or some other easy path I can take advantage of. Most countries require you to live months out of the year in that country for years and/or overcome some other major hurdle. Canada filters based on your education, profession, criminal record, etc. and IIRC it takes upwards of 5 years to get citizenship. It’s not like I can just fill out an application, pay a small amount of money, and be done with it. That’s not even considering if you have kids. Whole different ball game. I know you probably know all of this, yet your response is vastly oversimplifying the issue. You would’ve just quit your job, packed up your family and belongings, sold your house if you own one, uprooted your kid(s) if you’re a parent, said goodbye to any friends/family here, and left weeks into the administration for a country you aren’t a citizen of? Just like that? If it was just moving to another state, even though that is also not without its challenges, I could see an argument for that. That’s probably more akin to what it’s like moving around Western Europe/the EU. But permanently leaving the US is no small matter.
      - jghn 1y ago
        Exactly this. I mean, I know I qualify for the golden visa or equivalent in a number of countries in which I'd like to live. But that's *very* different from it making sense for me to turn on a dime and move there. And that's before I consider things like moving away from elderly family, leaving friends, and more. But I've shifted from "it sounds nice to have an expat retirement in one of these places 10-15 years from now" to "I should start looking into what this would look like as the chance I'd want or need to do this sooner is no longer 0%". And that's a huge indictment on the state of affairs here in my mind.
        1y ago
RcouF1uZ4gsC 1y ago
There aren’t that many places out of America’s orbit where you would want to live. If by failure you mean fascist and authoritarian, America could still reach you.
- DSingularity 1y ago
  > still reach you Yeah but the effort just went up 10x Besides I don’t think they are moving to resist the fascism. It’s to seek an alternative and carry on living.
- steveBK123 1y ago
  Agreed, the problem is that in many scenarios where the US becomes a failed state.. you probably want to be IN the US rather than living under our security umbrella (Canada/Europe/Japan/Korea/Taiwan/Australia). Or worse, in a nation we might end up in a shooting war with (Russia/China). Either enemies are going to make moves in our absence, or we are going to pray upon former allies (next orange man takes his trade wars kinetic). So I'd rather still be in the exponentially larger (population & land) isolated continental power surrounded mostly by water and smaller states.
zoklet-enjoyer 1y ago
It looks like a huge hassle, but I should be able to get citizenship in an EU county based on ancestry. I should do that sooner than later.
- aaronrobinson 1y ago
  If it’s Italy you may be disappointed as they’ve recently changed the rules
  - zoklet-enjoyer 1y ago
    My mom's dad was from Italy and her mom from Germany. I want to try for German citizenship. It looks like I'm eligible based on what I saw online. Previously I had looked into Italian citizenship and found that I wasn't eligible because my grandpa had become an American before my mom was born
    - aaronrobinson 1y ago
      You used to have to prove that your ancestor hadn’t given up the Italian citizenship which is where you would have missed out. I believe your ancestor is now limited to parent or grandparent AND one or both must have a ‘connection’ to Italy - as in they were born there and/or live there. I know nothing about German citizenship but my advice to you would be to start the process now given the far right momentum in Germany and the world in general. I’ve been through the process and mine was fairly straightforward and it still took a couple of years to gather and legalise document and then go through the process.
    - saguntum 1y ago
      Look at reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship
- rayiner 1y ago
  > I should be able to get citizenship in an EU county based on ancestry Imagine complaining about America and then fleeing to an ethnostate.
rayiner 1y ago
> I agree that Dual Citizenship is a dream among a large plurality of Americans I would be shocked if it’s even above 10%.
- BirAdam 1y ago
  Well, 10% would be a “large plurality” considering that’d be 33 million people.
  - keiferski 1y ago
    Plurality means the largest option amongst other options. 33 million people is a lot, but it’s not a plurality (typically something like 30%) or a majority (over 50.1%.)
futureshock 1y ago
I’ll borrow ideas from investing: financial independence, diversification and optionality. If you have enough money you can free yourself from the labor market, but you are still deeply tied to your home country. A second citizenship gives you geopolitical independence. And just like diverse investments protect you from the failure of a specific asset, diverse countries can protect you from, for example, a collapse in heath care, a housing crisis or a currency crisis. And most importantly, its like an options contract on life. You have the option, not the commitment to take a high value move to a new country. If the fortunes of your current country sink and your second country rise, you can exercise your option. There’s a reason people are willing to spend so much on golden visas with the pathway to citizenship.
- ashleyn 1y ago
  What would be the most realistic and best option for a second visa for someone with a ~$1-3MM net worth?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - lancewiggs 1y ago
    The New Zealand Active Investor Plus resident program requires $5m NZD, which is under $3m USD, but that would take everything. There is another program mooted where you buy a business for less than that.
  - HaZeust 1y ago
    Malta - which is an EU member. "Individual investors must make a minimum contribution of €600,000 to the national development fund set up by the government and prove 36 months of residency. Alternatively, there is an expedited route which requires a contribution of €750,000 and evidence of 12 months residency" [1] 1 - http://goldenvisas.com/malta http://goldenvisas.com/malta
- pydry 1y ago
  >And just like diverse investments protect you from the failure of a specific asset, diverse countries can protect you from, for example, a collapse in heath care, a housing crisis or a currency crisis. Although, just like certain asset classes correlate strongly, certain countries are geopolitically, economically, militarily tied at the hip and will both rise and fall together. I wouldnt consider anywhere western a good hedge against America going down coz it has a really good chance of getting dragged down with it.
dotnet00 1y ago
Not a citizen, but yes, I've had a shift in perspective lately and noticed a similar shift among other immigrants of keeping backup options in mind rather than thinking of America as a reliable place to be. Even if we view the current situation as temporary and it goes away in 4 years, the knowledge that a large chunk of the population is just looking for an excuse to harass immigrants and destroy their life regardless of citizenship status, pulls America down to the level of many other places, which maybe have similar issues but do much better on other things.
keiferski 1y ago
Yeah as an American that has been living abroad for a decade and will be a dual citizen soon: I don’t agree with that take at all. The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US. Dual citizenship, much less actually living abroad, is still an extremely niche topic and basically only a thing amongst upper middle class and above professionals and tech workers. And as chaotic and concerning as many political events may be, the idea that the US will become “a failed state” is pretty divorced from the actual reality of what that term means. If the US becomes a failed state, trust me, the rest of the world will be too.
- hypeatei 1y ago
  > And as chaotic and concerning as many political events may be, the idea that the US will become “a failed state” is pretty divorced from the actual reality Becoming a failed state overnight? Probably not, I agree. Midterm elections are approaching and the federal government has already shown its willingness to deploy the military to big cities for intimidation purposes. Also don't forget: our current President also tried to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after the 2020 election. I feel like we get stuck in this "nothing ever happens" loop while our liberties slowly get stripped away and even after a thing happens, we delude ourselves by saying it won't actually get that bad. Frogs in a pot.
  - keiferski 1y ago
    There’s a very big difference between a failed state and life slowly getting worse, institutional rotting, etc. I really don’t foresee a scenario where America turns into Somalia or Haiti in the near future.
    - hypeatei 1y ago
      There's a famous saying about going bankrupt: "How did you go bankrupt? Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly" In this case, "going bankrupt" is the dissolution of the United States. We definitely won't be able to predict when it happens, and it may be unlikely, but IMO the likelihood of it happening ticks up the more I see how the federal government is attempting to crush dissent. Not to mention completely apolitical things like the debt crisis, which will be unmanageable after a certain point. Our biggest line item in the budget is now paying interest on the debt. And we just passed the OBBB which increased deficit spending by $3.4T over ten years.

Forgeties79 1y ago

Been exploring it in my household for sure.

jghn 1y ago
Same. It's shifted from an escapist fantasy about getting away from it all to a more literal definition of "escapist fantasy". if it weren't for family & friend ties binding us to our geographical area it'd already be a lot more serious. We're not *that* far from a low end FIRE situation, so a move to a more LCOL country could make a ton of sense and escape ... all of this.
- Forgeties79 1y ago
  I get a lot of grief for it from a few people but the simple fact is it’s gone from an unthinkable possibility to something I would consider a single-digit- percentage possibility. At that point it feels like something I need to at least be moderately prepared for. Especially as someone in the gulf south. It just doesn’t feel very safe down here anymore. Watching ICE roll through in full equipment on armored vehicles during Mardi Gras this year was a serious wake up call. That’s not the kind of show of force you do for shits and giggles. That’s textbook “send them a message.”
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- sippeangelo 1y ago
  From an EU perspective I would have been out of there in February. But what is it they say, again? "Grass is always browner on the other side"? It also helps being part of a minority that the sitting regime wants to exterminate to the very definition of the word.
  - Forgeties79 1y ago
    It’s not as simple as hopping on a train and leaving. No one in my immediate family has citizenship in another country or some other easy path I can take advantage of. Most countries require you to live months out of the year in that country for years and/or overcome some other major hurdle. Canada filters based on your education, profession, criminal record, etc. and IIRC it takes upwards of 5 years to get citizenship. It’s not like I can just fill out an application, pay a small amount of money, and be done with it. That’s not even considering if you have kids. Whole different ball game. I know you probably know all of this, yet your response is vastly oversimplifying the issue. You would’ve just quit your job, packed up your family and belongings, sold your house if you own one, uprooted your kid(s) if you’re a parent, said goodbye to any friends/family here, and left weeks into the administration for a country you aren’t a citizen of? Just like that? If it was just moving to another state, even though that is also not without its challenges, I could see an argument for that. That’s probably more akin to what it’s like moving around Western Europe/the EU. But permanently leaving the US is no small matter.
    - jghn 1y ago
      Exactly this. I mean, I know I qualify for the golden visa or equivalent in a number of countries in which I'd like to live. But that's *very* different from it making sense for me to turn on a dime and move there. And that's before I consider things like moving away from elderly family, leaving friends, and more. But I've shifted from "it sounds nice to have an expat retirement in one of these places 10-15 years from now" to "I should start looking into what this would look like as the chance I'd want or need to do this sooner is no longer 0%". And that's a huge indictment on the state of affairs here in my mind.
      - 1y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 1y ago

There aren’t that many places out of America’s orbit where you would want to live. If by failure you mean fascist and authoritarian, America could still reach you.

DSingularity 1y ago
> still reach you Yeah but the effort just went up 10x Besides I don’t think they are moving to resist the fascism. It’s to seek an alternative and carry on living.
steveBK123 1y ago
Agreed, the problem is that in many scenarios where the US becomes a failed state.. you probably want to be IN the US rather than living under our security umbrella (Canada/Europe/Japan/Korea/Taiwan/Australia). Or worse, in a nation we might end up in a shooting war with (Russia/China). Either enemies are going to make moves in our absence, or we are going to pray upon former allies (next orange man takes his trade wars kinetic). So I'd rather still be in the exponentially larger (population & land) isolated continental power surrounded mostly by water and smaller states.

zoklet-enjoyer 1y ago

It looks like a huge hassle, but I should be able to get citizenship in an EU county based on ancestry. I should do that sooner than later.

aaronrobinson 1y ago
If it’s Italy you may be disappointed as they’ve recently changed the rules
- zoklet-enjoyer 1y ago
  My mom's dad was from Italy and her mom from Germany. I want to try for German citizenship. It looks like I'm eligible based on what I saw online. Previously I had looked into Italian citizenship and found that I wasn't eligible because my grandpa had become an American before my mom was born
  - aaronrobinson 1y ago
    You used to have to prove that your ancestor hadn’t given up the Italian citizenship which is where you would have missed out. I believe your ancestor is now limited to parent or grandparent AND one or both must have a ‘connection’ to Italy - as in they were born there and/or live there. I know nothing about German citizenship but my advice to you would be to start the process now given the far right momentum in Germany and the world in general. I’ve been through the process and mine was fairly straightforward and it still took a couple of years to gather and legalise document and then go through the process.
  - saguntum 1y ago
    Look at reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship
rayiner 1y ago
> I should be able to get citizenship in an EU county based on ancestry Imagine complaining about America and then fleeing to an ethnostate.

rayiner 1y ago

> I agree that Dual Citizenship is a dream among a large plurality of Americans I would be shocked if it’s even above 10%.

BirAdam 1y ago
Well, 10% would be a “large plurality” considering that’d be 33 million people.
- keiferski 1y ago
  Plurality means the largest option amongst other options. 33 million people is a lot, but it’s not a plurality (typically something like 30%) or a majority (over 50.1%.)

futureshock 1y ago

I’ll borrow ideas from investing: financial independence, diversification and optionality. If you have enough money you can free yourself from the labor market, but you are still deeply tied to your home country. A second citizenship gives you geopolitical independence. And just like diverse investments protect you from the failure of a specific asset, diverse countries can protect you from, for example, a collapse in heath care, a housing crisis or a currency crisis. And most importantly, its like an options contract on life. You have the option, not the commitment to take a high value move to a new country. If the fortunes of your current country sink and your second country rise, you can exercise your option. There’s a reason people are willing to spend so much on golden visas with the pathway to citizenship.

ashleyn 1y ago
What would be the most realistic and best option for a second visa for someone with a ~$1-3MM net worth?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- lancewiggs 1y ago
  The New Zealand Active Investor Plus resident program requires $5m NZD, which is under $3m USD, but that would take everything. There is another program mooted where you buy a business for less than that.
- HaZeust 1y ago
  Malta - which is an EU member. "Individual investors must make a minimum contribution of €600,000 to the national development fund set up by the government and prove 36 months of residency. Alternatively, there is an expedited route which requires a contribution of €750,000 and evidence of 12 months residency" [1] 1 - http://goldenvisas.com/malta http://goldenvisas.com/malta
pydry 1y ago
>And just like diverse investments protect you from the failure of a specific asset, diverse countries can protect you from, for example, a collapse in heath care, a housing crisis or a currency crisis. Although, just like certain asset classes correlate strongly, certain countries are geopolitically, economically, militarily tied at the hip and will both rise and fall together. I wouldnt consider anywhere western a good hedge against America going down coz it has a really good chance of getting dragged down with it.

dotnet00 1y ago

Not a citizen, but yes, I've had a shift in perspective lately and noticed a similar shift among other immigrants of keeping backup options in mind rather than thinking of America as a reliable place to be. Even if we view the current situation as temporary and it goes away in 4 years, the knowledge that a large chunk of the population is just looking for an excuse to harass immigrants and destroy their life regardless of citizenship status, pulls America down to the level of many other places, which maybe have similar issues but do much better on other things.

keiferski 1y ago

Yeah as an American that has been living abroad for a decade and will be a dual citizen soon: I don’t agree with that take at all. The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US. Dual citizenship, much less actually living abroad, is still an extremely niche topic and basically only a thing amongst upper middle class and above professionals and tech workers. And as chaotic and concerning as many political events may be, the idea that the US will become “a failed state” is pretty divorced from the actual reality of what that term means. If the US becomes a failed state, trust me, the rest of the world will be too.

hypeatei 1y ago
> And as chaotic and concerning as many political events may be, the idea that the US will become “a failed state” is pretty divorced from the actual reality Becoming a failed state overnight? Probably not, I agree. Midterm elections are approaching and the federal government has already shown its willingness to deploy the military to big cities for intimidation purposes. Also don't forget: our current President also tried to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after the 2020 election. I feel like we get stuck in this "nothing ever happens" loop while our liberties slowly get stripped away and even after a thing happens, we delude ourselves by saying it won't actually get that bad. Frogs in a pot.
- keiferski 1y ago
  There’s a very big difference between a failed state and life slowly getting worse, institutional rotting, etc. I really don’t foresee a scenario where America turns into Somalia or Haiti in the near future.
  - hypeatei 1y ago
    There's a famous saying about going bankrupt: "How did you go bankrupt? Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly" In this case, "going bankrupt" is the dissolution of the United States. We definitely won't be able to predict when it happens, and it may be unlikely, but IMO the likelihood of it happening ticks up the more I see how the federal government is attempting to crush dissent. Not to mention completely apolitical things like the debt crisis, which will be unmanageable after a certain point. Our biggest line item in the budget is now paying interest on the debt. And we just passed the OBBB which increased deficit spending by $3.4T over ten years.