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> it just uses conventions he is not used to ...and everyone else, including everyone who is also using a GUI on Linux - even if they use the GUI version of Em

> it just uses conventions he is not used to ...and everyone else, including everyone who is also using a GUI on Linux - even if they use the GUI version of Emacs.

cmrdporcupine 1y ago
and frankly including other emacs users, too. Any non-trivial use of emacs ends up involving a pile of customizations.
- jama211 1y ago
  Yup
jama211 1y ago
Yeah, basically when they said that it should’ve begged the question “why is he not used to those conventions?” And the answer would be because the conventions it uses aren’t used by anything else (which means they can barely be called conventions), and makes no effort to adopt any conventions of the platform it’s running on even just to get you started. Also, another user said it has a tutorial when opened which should teach the basics in “10 to 15 min” but I have a feeling I would need 0 minutes to learn the basics of turbo c++. I get that there are diehard eMacs and vim fans and honestly I’m happy for them. But at the end of the day scientifically speaking ease of use is not JUST down to familiarity alone. You can objectively measure this stuff and some things are just harder to use than others even with preloaded info.
- badsectoracula 1y ago
  > I have a feeling I would need 0 minutes to learn the basics of turbo c++. Well, Turbo C++ (at least the one in the article) does use common conventions but those were conventions of 1992 :-P. So Copy is Ctrl+Ins, Paste is Shift+Ins, save is F2, open is F3, etc. Some stuff are similar to modern editing like Shift+motion to select, F1 for help, F10 to activate the menu bar, etc. And all shortcut keys are displayed on the menu bar commands so it is easy to learn them (some of the more intricate editor shortcut keys are not displayed in the menus, but are mentioned in the help you get if you press F1 with an editor window active).
  - jama211 1y ago
    Yes some unfamiliar commands for sure
- 1718627440 1y ago
  These conventions work in a lot of Linux GUI tools, in the built-in Git GUI, the shell and every text-box in MacOS.
  - jama211 1y ago
    emacs conventions do?
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      Eh yes? They are mostly readline conventions. What's the question?
      - jama211 1y ago
        Which conventions do you mean specifically? Like copy/paste shortcuts? The buttons you use for navigating UI?

> it just uses conventions he is not used to ...and everyone else, including everyone who is also using a GUI on Linux - even if they use the GUI version of Emacs.

cmrdporcupine 1y ago

and frankly including other emacs users, too. Any non-trivial use of emacs ends up involving a pile of customizations.

jama211 1y ago
Yup

jama211 1y ago

Yeah, basically when they said that it should’ve begged the question “why is he not used to those conventions?” And the answer would be because the conventions it uses aren’t used by anything else (which means they can barely be called conventions), and makes no effort to adopt any conventions of the platform it’s running on even just to get you started. Also, another user said it has a tutorial when opened which should teach the basics in “10 to 15 min” but I have a feeling I would need 0 minutes to learn the basics of turbo c++. I get that there are diehard eMacs and vim fans and honestly I’m happy for them. But at the end of the day scientifically speaking ease of use is not JUST down to familiarity alone. You can objectively measure this stuff and some things are just harder to use than others even with preloaded info.

badsectoracula 1y ago
> I have a feeling I would need 0 minutes to learn the basics of turbo c++. Well, Turbo C++ (at least the one in the article) does use common conventions but those were conventions of 1992 :-P. So Copy is Ctrl+Ins, Paste is Shift+Ins, save is F2, open is F3, etc. Some stuff are similar to modern editing like Shift+motion to select, F1 for help, F10 to activate the menu bar, etc. And all shortcut keys are displayed on the menu bar commands so it is easy to learn them (some of the more intricate editor shortcut keys are not displayed in the menus, but are mentioned in the help you get if you press F1 with an editor window active).
- jama211 1y ago
  Yes some unfamiliar commands for sure
1718627440 1y ago
These conventions work in a lot of Linux GUI tools, in the built-in Git GUI, the shell and every text-box in MacOS.
- jama211 1y ago
  emacs conventions do?
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    Eh yes? They are mostly readline conventions. What's the question?
    - jama211 1y ago
      Which conventions do you mean specifically? Like copy/paste shortcuts? The buttons you use for navigating UI?