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Declaring something as having "responsibility" implies some delegation of control. A normal toaster makes zero decisions, and as such it has no control over any

Declaring something as having "responsibility" implies some delegation of control. A normal toaster makes zero decisions, and as such it has no control over anything.

robotresearcher 1y ago
A toaster has feedback control over its temperature, time control over its cooking duration, and start/stop control by attending to its start/cancel buttons. It makes decisions constantly. I simply can't make toast without a toaster, however psychologically primary you want me to be. Without either of us, there's no new toast. Team effort every time. And to make it even more interesting, the same is true for my mum and her toaster. She does not understand how her toaster works. And yet: toast reliably appears! Where is the essential toast understanding in that system? Nowhere and everywhere! It simply isn't relevant.
- godelski 1y ago
  > I simply can't make toast without a toaster You literally just put bread on a hot pan.
  - robotresearcher 1y ago
    So despite passing the Toasting Test, a hot pan is not really a toaster? It’s clear that minds are not easily changed when it comes to noticing and surrendering folk psychology notions that feel important.
    - godelski 1y ago
      You said you couldn't make toast without a toaster. Sorry, if I didn't understand what you actually meant
- simondotau 1y ago
  > A toaster has feedback control over its temperature, time control over its cooking duration Most toasters are heating elements attached to a timer adjusted by the human operator. It doesn’t have any feedback control. It doesn’t have any time control. > I simply can't make toast without a toaster I can’t make toast without bread either, but that doesn’t make the bread “responsible” for toasting itself. > She does not understand how her toaster works. My mum doesn’t understand how bread is made, but she can still have the intent to acquire it from a store and expose it to heat for a nominal period of time.

Declaring something as having "responsibility" implies some delegation of control. A normal toaster makes zero decisions, and as such it has no control over anything.

robotresearcher 1y ago

A toaster has feedback control over its temperature, time control over its cooking duration, and start/stop control by attending to its start/cancel buttons. It makes decisions constantly. I simply can't make toast without a toaster, however psychologically primary you want me to be. Without either of us, there's no new toast. Team effort every time. And to make it even more interesting, the same is true for my mum and her toaster. She does not understand how her toaster works. And yet: toast reliably appears! Where is the essential toast understanding in that system? Nowhere and everywhere! It simply isn't relevant.

godelski 1y ago
> I simply can't make toast without a toaster You literally just put bread on a hot pan.
- robotresearcher 1y ago
  So despite passing the Toasting Test, a hot pan is not really a toaster? It’s clear that minds are not easily changed when it comes to noticing and surrendering folk psychology notions that feel important.
  - godelski 1y ago
    You said you couldn't make toast without a toaster. Sorry, if I didn't understand what you actually meant
simondotau 1y ago
> A toaster has feedback control over its temperature, time control over its cooking duration Most toasters are heating elements attached to a timer adjusted by the human operator. It doesn’t have any feedback control. It doesn’t have any time control. > I simply can't make toast without a toaster I can’t make toast without bread either, but that doesn’t make the bread “responsible” for toasting itself. > She does not understand how her toaster works. My mum doesn’t understand how bread is made, but she can still have the intent to acquire it from a store and expose it to heat for a nominal period of time.