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Also when we outsource jobs to other countries, presumably given that the point of doing so is that they have a lower cost of living, therefore the company save

by ktizo 14y ago

Also when we outsource jobs to other countries, presumably given that the point of doing so is that they have a lower cost of living, therefore the company saves money. So presumably they could be paid and treated really well and would still be a lot cheaper. It is one thing to move production to save money from wage differences, and quite another to then turn a blind eye to the working conditions of your new employees under the guise of it being the suppliers problem. Also, it is worth remembering that although Apple is a major customer of Foxconn's and has some of the most leverage with them (which is why it is really is worth annoying Apple about this), they are hardly the only people who make use of Foxconn and that there are also a lot worse places than Foxconn that do not have such a strong light shone upon them, and that are usually forgotten quickly even when they make the news.

shimon_e 14y ago
The Chinese have a mob mentality. They themselves don't even know what they are rioting about, most the time. The internet is learning that it is about an accident in between a guard and a worker at 10pm. Trust me, the internet is learning this fact before a majority of the rioters are. If you can really call them rioters, as it is more like a 2000 man parade with about 5 people actually rioting (see the video). No one is in uniform so it is safe to assume these are off shift workers. The last riot at Foxconn started with a dispute in between a worker and a local restaurant owner. Ended with a 1000 man riot. Nothing to do with Foxconn worker rights. Such riots can't be equivocated with workers flighting for greater rights. They aren't. They want more money. Most the disputes are about broken promises of overtime work, as the workers make their best money from overtime. The workers don't live anywhere near the factories. They just work there for a few years to take money back to the villages where their families and friends live. They want money to improve families living conditions, not the factory that they don't give a damn about. They would trade factory conditions for more money almost any time, as the factory conditions are just temporary for them. They want to reach their goal of saving $X, go home, and enjoy their lives with their family and friends. What I am saying is not universal in China. The Chinese government controls migration and in some locations factories can only employ local people. In such factories labour costs are much higher and workers do receive much better working conditions. This story is not about such a factory.
- ktizo 14y ago
  So, you are saying the Chinese have a mob mentality, and that these people don't know what they are rioting about, are not actually rioting at all and are not all acting the same. I am trying to work out whether you are more of a bigot than an imbecile or vice-versa. At the moment I wouldn't be willing to bet either way.
  - shimon_e 14y ago
    Hahaha... You should look at the anti-Japan riots videos from the past month. My not so clear point was that the Chinese riots have a lot less hooligans. When one talks of Chinese riots one should not imagine they are behaving like football hooligans. See this for example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKnuILXFVZI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKnuILXFVZI and the article's video. You'll get what I mean.
    - ktizo 14y ago
      You'll get what I mean. Oh, don't worry, I get what you mean. You may be incoherent, but you are far from subtle.
  - b6 14y ago
    Having lived in China for two years, I think it's accurate to say that some, maybe even most, Chinese people have a mob mentality. I can't support this claim with the kind of evidence you want; there are only countless anecdotes and videos and personal experiences. For example, a foreigner in Zhengzhou in Henan was thought to have slapped a girl on a scooter. When an angry mob formed, he locked himself in his car. Video shows hundreds of angry Chinese people yelling staring at him though the car windows. When they saw a Walmart badge on his chest, they decided that he was American and started calling him "American devil". He had to be escorted to safety by local police to avoid being dragged out of the car and beaten. But only the smallest fraction of people there had actually seen the alleged incident. The "badge" on his chest was actually a Walmart brochure sticking out of his chest pocket. I contacted Walmart media relations and they were aware of the incident, but the man had no affiliation with them. That, I find, is the way it typically happens. Chinese people are already angry and resentful about something, and then something sets them off. It doesn't matter if the "something" has little to nothing to do with whatever they were angry about.
mc32 14y ago
My feeling is that without a dedicated world body with the force of law behind it like a "Bern Convention" but for labor, what you are proposing is fantastic. It's as if one might expect people who buy a burger from McDonald's to go ahead and give the half way difference between what a burger costs at McDonald's and a Gourment burger joint (assuming McD pays its employees around minimum wage and the Gourment joint pays more) to McD's workers "to be fair". If China feels it's in its interest not to bolster its labor laws and not to vigorously enforce those it has, then leaving it up to individual companies to unilaterally take up the good cause is not an effective policy. The central government could fix all these issues, but it feels they are subservient to other issues. Mandating higher wages risks making automation more attractive which would dispossess these marginal workers. Foxconn as it is, is exploring this alternative as they witness wage inflation. Why would Volkswagen, Toyota, Dell, Hitachi, Samsung, even Huawei, etc., unilaterally require that their OEMs pay their (OEMs's not actually the foreign firms's) employees any more than they do when doing so would put them at a disadvantage vis a vis other OEMs and those customers who do not pay higher wages? Let's say Acer picked up the good cause but no one else did, Acer would eventually lose to the others due to higher costs. It's not as though the OEMs and their customers need to compete for labor.

by ktizo 14y ago

shimon_e 14y ago

The Chinese have a mob mentality. They themselves don't even know what they are rioting about, most the time. The internet is learning that it is about an accident in between a guard and a worker at 10pm. Trust me, the internet is learning this fact before a majority of the rioters are. If you can really call them rioters, as it is more like a 2000 man parade with about 5 people actually rioting (see the video). No one is in uniform so it is safe to assume these are off shift workers. The last riot at Foxconn started with a dispute in between a worker and a local restaurant owner. Ended with a 1000 man riot. Nothing to do with Foxconn worker rights. Such riots can't be equivocated with workers flighting for greater rights. They aren't. They want more money. Most the disputes are about broken promises of overtime work, as the workers make their best money from overtime. The workers don't live anywhere near the factories. They just work there for a few years to take money back to the villages where their families and friends live. They want money to improve families living conditions, not the factory that they don't give a damn about. They would trade factory conditions for more money almost any time, as the factory conditions are just temporary for them. They want to reach their goal of saving $X, go home, and enjoy their lives with their family and friends. What I am saying is not universal in China. The Chinese government controls migration and in some locations factories can only employ local people. In such factories labour costs are much higher and workers do receive much better working conditions. This story is not about such a factory.

ktizo 14y ago
So, you are saying the Chinese have a mob mentality, and that these people don't know what they are rioting about, are not actually rioting at all and are not all acting the same. I am trying to work out whether you are more of a bigot than an imbecile or vice-versa. At the moment I wouldn't be willing to bet either way.
- shimon_e 14y ago
  Hahaha... You should look at the anti-Japan riots videos from the past month. My not so clear point was that the Chinese riots have a lot less hooligans. When one talks of Chinese riots one should not imagine they are behaving like football hooligans. See this for example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKnuILXFVZI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKnuILXFVZI and the article's video. You'll get what I mean.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    You'll get what I mean. Oh, don't worry, I get what you mean. You may be incoherent, but you are far from subtle.
- b6 14y ago
  Having lived in China for two years, I think it's accurate to say that some, maybe even most, Chinese people have a mob mentality. I can't support this claim with the kind of evidence you want; there are only countless anecdotes and videos and personal experiences. For example, a foreigner in Zhengzhou in Henan was thought to have slapped a girl on a scooter. When an angry mob formed, he locked himself in his car. Video shows hundreds of angry Chinese people yelling staring at him though the car windows. When they saw a Walmart badge on his chest, they decided that he was American and started calling him "American devil". He had to be escorted to safety by local police to avoid being dragged out of the car and beaten. But only the smallest fraction of people there had actually seen the alleged incident. The "badge" on his chest was actually a Walmart brochure sticking out of his chest pocket. I contacted Walmart media relations and they were aware of the incident, but the man had no affiliation with them. That, I find, is the way it typically happens. Chinese people are already angry and resentful about something, and then something sets them off. It doesn't matter if the "something" has little to nothing to do with whatever they were angry about.

mc32 14y ago

My feeling is that without a dedicated world body with the force of law behind it like a "Bern Convention" but for labor, what you are proposing is fantastic. It's as if one might expect people who buy a burger from McDonald's to go ahead and give the half way difference between what a burger costs at McDonald's and a Gourment burger joint (assuming McD pays its employees around minimum wage and the Gourment joint pays more) to McD's workers "to be fair". If China feels it's in its interest not to bolster its labor laws and not to vigorously enforce those it has, then leaving it up to individual companies to unilaterally take up the good cause is not an effective policy. The central government could fix all these issues, but it feels they are subservient to other issues. Mandating higher wages risks making automation more attractive which would dispossess these marginal workers. Foxconn as it is, is exploring this alternative as they witness wage inflation. Why would Volkswagen, Toyota, Dell, Hitachi, Samsung, even Huawei, etc., unilaterally require that their OEMs pay their (OEMs's not actually the foreign firms's) employees any more than they do when doing so would put them at a disadvantage vis a vis other OEMs and those customers who do not pay higher wages? Let's say Acer picked up the good cause but no one else did, Acer would eventually lose to the others due to higher costs. It's not as though the OEMs and their customers need to compete for labor.