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So my toaster understands toast and I don’t understand toast? Then why am I operating the toaster and not the other way around?
by dullcrisp 1y ago
So my toaster understands toast and I don’t understand toast? Then why am I operating the toaster and not the other way around?
- simondotau 1y agoA toaster cannot perform the task of making toast any more than an Allen key can perform the task of assembling flat pack furniture.
- dullcrisp 1y agoThis is contrary to my experience with toasters, but it doesn’t seem worth arguing about.
- jrflowers 1y agoHow does your toaster get the bread on its own?
- recursive 1y agoHow do you get bread? Don't tell me you got it at the market. That's just paying someone else to get it for you.
- godelski 1y ago> That's just paying someone else to get it for you. We can automate that too![0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45623154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45623154 (Your name is quite serendipitous to this conversation)
- dullcrisp 1y agoIt’s only responsible for the toasting part. The bread machine makes the bread.
- jrflowers 1y agoIf the toaster is the thing that “performs the task of making toast”, what do you call it when a human gets bread and puts it in a toaster?
- simondotau 1y agoWhat is your definition of "responsible"? The human is making literally all decisions and isn't abdicating responsibility for anything. The average toaster has literally one operational variable (cook time) and even that minuscule proto-responsibility is entirely on the human operator. All other aspects of the toaster's operation are decisions made by the toaster's human designer/engineer.
- godelski 1y agoLet me understand, is your claim that a toaster can't toast bread because it cannot initiate the toasting through its own volition? Ignoring the silly wording, that is a very different thing than what robotresearcher said. And actually, in a weird way I agree. Though I disagree that a toaster can't toast bread. Let's take a step back. At what point is it me making the toast and not the toaster? Is it because I have to press the level? We can automate that. Is it because I have to put by bread in? We can automate that. Is it because I have to have the desire to have toast and initiate the chain of events? How do you measure that? I'm certain that's different from measuring task success. And that's why I disagree with robotresearcher. The logic isn't self consistent.
- robotresearcher 1y agoYou and the toaster made toast together. Like you and your shoes went for a walk. Not sure where you imagine my inconsistency is.
- godelski 1y agoThat doesn't resolve the question. > Not sure where you imagine my inconsistency is. >> Let's take a step back. At what point is it me making the toast and not the toaster? Is it because I have to press the level? We can automate that. Is it because I have to put by bread in? We can automate that. Is it because I have to have the desire to have toast and initiate the chain of events? How do you measure that? You have a PhD and 30 years of experience, so I'm quite confident you are capable of adapting the topic of "making toast" to "playing chess", "doing physics", "programming", or any similar topic where we are benchmarking results. Maybe I've (and others?) misunderstood your claim from the get-go? You seem to have implied that LLMs understand chess, physics, programming, etc because of their performance. Yet now it seems your claim is that the LLM and I are doing those things together. If your claim is that a LLM understands programming the same way a toaster understands how to make toast, then we probably aren't disagreeing. But if your claim is that a LLM understands programming because it can produce programs that yield a correct output to test cases, then what's the difference from the toaster? I put the prompts in and pushed the button to make it toast. I'm not sure why you imagine the inconsistency is so difficult to see.