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Is that a religion now? The pickaxe guys coined it. People repeat it without thinking about it. If matz were to say "jump from the bridge", people would do it

Is that a religion now? The pickaxe guys coined it. People repeat it without thinking about it. If matz were to say "jump from the bridge", people would do it, because matz is nice? Just to point out: I do think matz is nice and a great language designer. That in itself doesn't mean anything. Why would I proxy my own decisions based on any mindless slogan? That makes no sense. Why do people in the ruby ecosystem keep on repeating those pointless slogans?

ubercore 1y ago
I think it's pretty obvious to see the difference between being nice and jumping off a bridge? Curious why this cute phrase bothers you so much.
- vidugavia 1y ago
  The phrase has been weaponized in the past many times. Some figures in the community are almost as far from "nice" as possible, but you're not allowed to call that out, because "it's not nice".
  - zahlman 1y ago
    > but you're not allowed to call that out, because "it's not nice". I don't know about the Ruby community, but I've seen this sort of complaint made about many other online spaces (including HN) and my general finding is that it simply isn't true. The problem is that for a proper call-out, both form and content matter, and most people in a mindset to make call-outs don't seem very interested in norms surrounding either of those things. Especially the part where part of good form is accepting that not all kind, well-meaning people have the same moral values and calculus.
    - fba11837 1y ago
      Try calling out Python's inner circle politely while they are openly rude to you. You do know that you also have keep up the pretense of Kim Yong Un as a glorious and benevolent leader even if he imprisoned some of your relatives. This is a response to your generalization, I do not know anything about Ruby politics.
      - zahlman 1y ago
        (I'm assuming this is a throwaway account from someone with some insight into the PSF, and not some random person who just happened to choose this subthread as an entry into participating in the HN community. If I'm wrong about that, I'd strongly urge you to reconsider your approach.) > Try calling out Python's inner circle politely while they are openly rude to you. ...You do know who you're responding to, right? I have first-hand experience of that (https://zahlman.github.io/posts/2024/07/31/an-open-letter-to-the-psf-coc-wg/ https://zahlman.github.io/posts/2024/07/31/an-open-letter-to...). (Although I don't think most of their rudeness is intentional; it seems to come from a failure to understand that not everyone has the same social norms.) I spoke in generalities for a reason. The current situation is ultimately mostly about callouts of DHH, which are happening all over the place (including here) and the form and substance of most of those callouts is... not good.
kamranjon 1y ago
Is being nice equivalent to jumping off a bridge? I think it's relatively simple to comprehend and also harmless. The guy who built this thing is nice, let's try to continue that tradition so that our community doesn't turn to shit.
delichon 1y ago
I know what you mean about mindless aspirational slogans. "No child left behind" is logically the same as "no child gets ahead". But trying to convince the Ruby community to be nice, by the example of their founder, isn't in that category. And if Matz told me to jump off of a bridge, he has enough stored up credibility that I'd at least consider it.
- gmac 1y ago
  > "No child left behind" is logically the same as "no child gets ahead" If by both statements you mean "all children must be in exactly the same position", yes ... but that's a wilfully obtuse interpretation.
  - delichon 1y ago
    It seems to be to be literal rather than obtuse to observe that it is necessary for some children to fall behind in order for others to get ahead. The slogan on its face is a wish for equality of outcome. But it's catchier than ”no child failing to meet minimum standards”.
    - saghm 1y ago
      I'm not convinced that yours is the only literal way to read it. The question of who exactly is doing the "leaving behind" is implicit, but it always sounded to me like it was the adults, not the other children. I don't think it's any less literal to interpret it as making sure some adults linger behind with the children who are behind rather than all of them running ahead with the children who go faster. The phrase isn't "no children are behind", which would be the literal representation of what you're saying; "left behind" is a bit ambiguous, and while I think you can make the case that the ambiguity is a problem, I don't think it's nearly as clear-cut as you're saying that there's only one literal way to read it.
    - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
      Have you ever gone hiking? Did not leaving anyone behind mean that nobody could hike ahead of the rest?
dudeinjapan 1y ago
Matz wouldn’t say jump from a bridge because he is nice.
mcphage 1y ago
> If matz were to say "jump from the bridge", people would do it, because matz is nice? As always, there's a relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1170/ https://xkcd.com/1170/ ...but seriously, what on earth do you think you're saying here?
squeaky-clean 1y ago
> Why would I proxy my own decisions based on any mindless slogan? Exactly, why would you? But ignoring a hypothetical communal bridge jumping situation, do you have a problem with Matz having stewardship over RubyGems? Use your own thinking. If you're okay with it, then... is it because Matz is nice?
sam0x17 1y ago
It affirms that being nice is a role model / thing we want to do in the Ruby community
matheusmoreira 1y ago
It's a reminder to us all. I don't think I've ever seen Matz be rude to anyone on the Ruby bug tracker. I've actually witnessed him deal with controversial topics firmly yet gracefully, making decisions that avoid turmoil in the community and that leave no room for escalation into flamewars. Other projects weren't so lucky. I wrote some Ruby in my teenage years and his conduct certainly made an impression on me. I try to remember this guy whenever I get too angry about stuff. We should all try to be more like him. That's what the phrase is saying, by the way. It's an encouragement to follow in his footsteps.

ubercore 1y ago

I think it's pretty obvious to see the difference between being nice and jumping off a bridge? Curious why this cute phrase bothers you so much.

vidugavia 1y ago
The phrase has been weaponized in the past many times. Some figures in the community are almost as far from "nice" as possible, but you're not allowed to call that out, because "it's not nice".
- zahlman 1y ago
  > but you're not allowed to call that out, because "it's not nice". I don't know about the Ruby community, but I've seen this sort of complaint made about many other online spaces (including HN) and my general finding is that it simply isn't true. The problem is that for a proper call-out, both form and content matter, and most people in a mindset to make call-outs don't seem very interested in norms surrounding either of those things. Especially the part where part of good form is accepting that not all kind, well-meaning people have the same moral values and calculus.
  - fba11837 1y ago
    Try calling out Python's inner circle politely while they are openly rude to you. You do know that you also have keep up the pretense of Kim Yong Un as a glorious and benevolent leader even if he imprisoned some of your relatives. This is a response to your generalization, I do not know anything about Ruby politics.
    - zahlman 1y ago
      (I'm assuming this is a throwaway account from someone with some insight into the PSF, and not some random person who just happened to choose this subthread as an entry into participating in the HN community. If I'm wrong about that, I'd strongly urge you to reconsider your approach.) > Try calling out Python's inner circle politely while they are openly rude to you. ...You do know who you're responding to, right? I have first-hand experience of that (https://zahlman.github.io/posts/2024/07/31/an-open-letter-to-the-psf-coc-wg/ https://zahlman.github.io/posts/2024/07/31/an-open-letter-to...). (Although I don't think most of their rudeness is intentional; it seems to come from a failure to understand that not everyone has the same social norms.) I spoke in generalities for a reason. The current situation is ultimately mostly about callouts of DHH, which are happening all over the place (including here) and the form and substance of most of those callouts is... not good.

kamranjon 1y ago

Is being nice equivalent to jumping off a bridge? I think it's relatively simple to comprehend and also harmless. The guy who built this thing is nice, let's try to continue that tradition so that our community doesn't turn to shit.

delichon 1y ago

I know what you mean about mindless aspirational slogans. "No child left behind" is logically the same as "no child gets ahead". But trying to convince the Ruby community to be nice, by the example of their founder, isn't in that category. And if Matz told me to jump off of a bridge, he has enough stored up credibility that I'd at least consider it.

gmac 1y ago
> "No child left behind" is logically the same as "no child gets ahead" If by both statements you mean "all children must be in exactly the same position", yes ... but that's a wilfully obtuse interpretation.
- delichon 1y ago
  It seems to be to be literal rather than obtuse to observe that it is necessary for some children to fall behind in order for others to get ahead. The slogan on its face is a wish for equality of outcome. But it's catchier than ”no child failing to meet minimum standards”.
  - saghm 1y ago
    I'm not convinced that yours is the only literal way to read it. The question of who exactly is doing the "leaving behind" is implicit, but it always sounded to me like it was the adults, not the other children. I don't think it's any less literal to interpret it as making sure some adults linger behind with the children who are behind rather than all of them running ahead with the children who go faster. The phrase isn't "no children are behind", which would be the literal representation of what you're saying; "left behind" is a bit ambiguous, and while I think you can make the case that the ambiguity is a problem, I don't think it's nearly as clear-cut as you're saying that there's only one literal way to read it.
  - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
    Have you ever gone hiking? Did not leaving anyone behind mean that nobody could hike ahead of the rest?

dudeinjapan 1y ago

Matz wouldn’t say jump from a bridge because he is nice.

mcphage 1y ago

> If matz were to say "jump from the bridge", people would do it, because matz is nice? As always, there's a relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1170/ https://xkcd.com/1170/ ...but seriously, what on earth do you think you're saying here?

squeaky-clean 1y ago

> Why would I proxy my own decisions based on any mindless slogan? Exactly, why would you? But ignoring a hypothetical communal bridge jumping situation, do you have a problem with Matz having stewardship over RubyGems? Use your own thinking. If you're okay with it, then... is it because Matz is nice?

sam0x17 1y ago

It affirms that being nice is a role model / thing we want to do in the Ruby community

matheusmoreira 1y ago

It's a reminder to us all. I don't think I've ever seen Matz be rude to anyone on the Ruby bug tracker. I've actually witnessed him deal with controversial topics firmly yet gracefully, making decisions that avoid turmoil in the community and that leave no room for escalation into flamewars. Other projects weren't so lucky. I wrote some Ruby in my teenage years and his conduct certainly made an impression on me. I try to remember this guy whenever I get too angry about stuff. We should all try to be more like him. That's what the phrase is saying, by the way. It's an encouragement to follow in his footsteps.