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Addressing the very first sentence in this post: > I had a mind-blown-moment when I learnt that Obsidian was built without any frontend JS framework. The comm

Addressing the very first sentence in this post: > I had a mind-blown-moment when I learnt that Obsidian was built without any frontend JS framework. The comment you’ve linked to is wrong. Obsidian uses the Electron framework for its “front-end” framework. In fact, it was even affected by the recent “Tahoe” Electron bug. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_(software)#Availability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_(software)#Availabili...

rudi-c 1y ago
Framework is unfortunately a term that's both ill-defined and quite overloaded. Electron is a framework in a very different sense than the "JS frameworks" op is asking about. The latter is about libraries with APIs and mental models for producing the UI & UX of web applications. Electron is just a way of running Chrome without the Chrome UI around it, + a few APIs for accessing native OS APIs. You wouldn't say that Chrome/Firefox/Safari are frameworks just because they execute JS code and has APIs. In the context of this discussion, it is fair to say that Obsidian was built without a framework.
- runjake 1y ago
  > Electron is a framework in a very different sense than the "JS frameworks" op is asking about. The OP doesn't have a good understanding of what they're asking about, and that's okay. That's why they asked the question. The linked thread is titled "What framework did the developer use to create Obsidian desktop application?". It's not asking about a web application and specifically referencing a desktop framework with: "He must be using some sort of desktop framework in order to push this out simultaneously right?". > The latter is about libraries with APIs and mental models for producing the UI & UX of web applications. Obsidian is not a web application. It is a desktop and mobile application. There is presently no Obsidian web application. So it would be odd to be asking about web frameworks for a non-web desktop and mobile application. > Electron is just a way of running Chrome without the Chrome UI around it, + a few APIs for accessing native OS APIs. No, Electron is a complete Javascript-based application framework. It does so much more[1] than that. 1. https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/app https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/app
  - rudi-c 1y ago
    I mean, you're correct that Obsidian doesn't run on the browser. But it's built on web technologies. As a result, I would argue that the overlap between the skillset and work needed to build an app like Obsidian overlaps more with most web applications than most desktop and mobile applications. You're also correct that Electron provides APIs beyond those available in the browser, such as access to the native filesystem. The way I see it, those are mostly some lower-level details it wouldn't be that hard to run Obsidian in the browser, it's just a product choice not to (specifically, it would imply creating a file hosting service). As the Obsidian mobile app demonstrates, Electron is swappable and not needed for Obsidian's core functionality. In contrast, had Obsidian been built on React, it would be rather difficult to simply "run without React" without rewriting the entire application. How to build a large front-end app on non-web technologies (Swift, C++/QT, C#, etc) is also an interesting question but I didn't understand that as being the topic of this conversation.
    - runjake 1y ago
      You can just admit you were wrong instead of continuing to move the goalposts. :)
      - rudi-c 1y ago
        Everyone else in this thread is talking about (React/Angular/Vue/JQuery/etc) v.s. (Plain JS/Direct DOM manipulation/etc). Running that code on top of Electron or not is entirely orthogonal. So I admit I'm confused why you're fixated on bringing Electron into the conversation. Op's question appears to me like it references the last part of the linked thread: "I’d like to know what JavaScript framework (e.g. Vue, React) Obsidian desktop application is using for creating the user interface?" Since we seem to be talking past each other, what do you think the conversation is about?
        runjake 1y ago
        I thought we were talking about this (pasted from your comment above): > "I’d like to know what JavaScript framework (e.g. Vue, React) Obsidian desktop application is using for creating the user interface? And the answer to that question is: Electron. Is that not the question?

rudi-c 1y ago

Framework is unfortunately a term that's both ill-defined and quite overloaded. Electron is a framework in a very different sense than the "JS frameworks" op is asking about. The latter is about libraries with APIs and mental models for producing the UI & UX of web applications. Electron is just a way of running Chrome without the Chrome UI around it, + a few APIs for accessing native OS APIs. You wouldn't say that Chrome/Firefox/Safari are frameworks just because they execute JS code and has APIs. In the context of this discussion, it is fair to say that Obsidian was built without a framework.

runjake 1y ago
> Electron is a framework in a very different sense than the "JS frameworks" op is asking about. The OP doesn't have a good understanding of what they're asking about, and that's okay. That's why they asked the question. The linked thread is titled "What framework did the developer use to create Obsidian desktop application?". It's not asking about a web application and specifically referencing a desktop framework with: "He must be using some sort of desktop framework in order to push this out simultaneously right?". > The latter is about libraries with APIs and mental models for producing the UI & UX of web applications. Obsidian is not a web application. It is a desktop and mobile application. There is presently no Obsidian web application. So it would be odd to be asking about web frameworks for a non-web desktop and mobile application. > Electron is just a way of running Chrome without the Chrome UI around it, + a few APIs for accessing native OS APIs. No, Electron is a complete Javascript-based application framework. It does so much more[1] than that. 1. https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/app https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/app
- rudi-c 1y ago
  I mean, you're correct that Obsidian doesn't run on the browser. But it's built on web technologies. As a result, I would argue that the overlap between the skillset and work needed to build an app like Obsidian overlaps more with most web applications than most desktop and mobile applications. You're also correct that Electron provides APIs beyond those available in the browser, such as access to the native filesystem. The way I see it, those are mostly some lower-level details it wouldn't be that hard to run Obsidian in the browser, it's just a product choice not to (specifically, it would imply creating a file hosting service). As the Obsidian mobile app demonstrates, Electron is swappable and not needed for Obsidian's core functionality. In contrast, had Obsidian been built on React, it would be rather difficult to simply "run without React" without rewriting the entire application. How to build a large front-end app on non-web technologies (Swift, C++/QT, C#, etc) is also an interesting question but I didn't understand that as being the topic of this conversation.
  - runjake 1y ago
    You can just admit you were wrong instead of continuing to move the goalposts. :)
    - rudi-c 1y ago
      Everyone else in this thread is talking about (React/Angular/Vue/JQuery/etc) v.s. (Plain JS/Direct DOM manipulation/etc). Running that code on top of Electron or not is entirely orthogonal. So I admit I'm confused why you're fixated on bringing Electron into the conversation. Op's question appears to me like it references the last part of the linked thread: "I’d like to know what JavaScript framework (e.g. Vue, React) Obsidian desktop application is using for creating the user interface?" Since we seem to be talking past each other, what do you think the conversation is about?
      - runjake 1y ago
        I thought we were talking about this (pasted from your comment above): > "I’d like to know what JavaScript framework (e.g. Vue, React) Obsidian desktop application is using for creating the user interface? And the answer to that question is: Electron. Is that not the question?