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Defence is not the responsibility of the EU. This is classic insidious power creep using Ukraine as a pretext at a time when the main military powers are either

Defence is not the responsibility of the EU. This is classic insidious power creep using Ukraine as a pretext at a time when the main military powers are either no longer in the EU (the UK is not there to push back anymore) or under inept leadership (France...)

ggm 1y ago
If you want to just let the individual nation states carry on being dysfunctional, I guess there's nothing to see here. If you want some sense of joint outcome that doesn't wind up in a Rafael shouting match on the other hand, you would like them to at least coordinate better and the best auspices for that outside of existing pan European JV and NATO (which invites a 600lb gorilla into the room, well into greenland) would be some kind of EU led process. Sure, in law it's individual states, thats not going to change. What has to change is posture and supply chains. The former demands a willingness to actually act. The latter demands spinning up. Spinning up takes time. I wish I had shares in rheinmetall. Well, really no I don't but I think their prospects are good.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  > Sure, in law it's individual states, thats not going to change. It is changing with the EU inserting itself as organisation in charge. This should be absolutely pushed back against. France could stop this instantly if it had some backbone, which it sorely lacks at the moment. It is fine to have a strong alliance and cooperation but the end game with the current trajectory is to finish off nation states as sovereign entities with the EU becoming the state. I don't think citizens have been asked for their opinion (obviously since they would reject it).
  - ggm 1y ago
    I think you're arguing a different matter. I don't have a strong view on a federated European model or the primacy of nation states. By the time that can happen I'll be dead, I'm not as oppositional as you are, it's close to religion to me, ie not worth arguing about because it comes to beliefs fast.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      The EU is a religion that we are not allowed to criticise in "good society" in Europe. That's a big problem.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    > (obviously since they would reject it). I am a citizen, I wish this were to finally happen. Don't portray your opinion as the one "of the people". If we don't finally federalize, we will be eaten up by the other big powers.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      Please stop doing this. Every time you accuse others of "portraying their opinion as the one "of the people"" when they make a general statement about public opinion because you disagree, thereby doing exactly what you accuse others of.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        It is you who is trying to portray your own opinion as the public opinion. You are not the public, just one member of it - as am I. I do not appreciate being spoken for by somebody I disagree with.
        mytailorisrich 1y ago
        "Public opinion" is a term that refers to what the public in aggregate thinks about an issue. Perhaps you are not clear about what the term means in English. On the issue of EU federalism there is no majority in favour. I do not express my own opinion when I state this and your own anecdotal opinion is irrelevant, too. So again, please let others refer to public opinion even if you disagree with it.
        saubeidl 1y ago
        I am familiar with what the term means, but barring a vote, you do not know what the public opinion would be. So please stop claiming popular support for your ideas based on what could most charitably be described as unfounded hunches.
      - mdhb 1y ago
        He is right and you are wrong here. You also have a years long history of bad faith contrarian comments here.
saubeidl 1y ago
Defense should be the responsibility of the EU. The power "creep" has been much too slow. Would you have accused Hamilton for advocating for "insidious power creep" as well for writing the Federalist Papers? States in the US federalized and are now a superpower. Why are we holding ourselves back?

ggm 1y ago

If you want to just let the individual nation states carry on being dysfunctional, I guess there's nothing to see here. If you want some sense of joint outcome that doesn't wind up in a Rafael shouting match on the other hand, you would like them to at least coordinate better and the best auspices for that outside of existing pan European JV and NATO (which invites a 600lb gorilla into the room, well into greenland) would be some kind of EU led process. Sure, in law it's individual states, thats not going to change. What has to change is posture and supply chains. The former demands a willingness to actually act. The latter demands spinning up. Spinning up takes time. I wish I had shares in rheinmetall. Well, really no I don't but I think their prospects are good.

mytailorisrich 1y ago
> Sure, in law it's individual states, thats not going to change. It is changing with the EU inserting itself as organisation in charge. This should be absolutely pushed back against. France could stop this instantly if it had some backbone, which it sorely lacks at the moment. It is fine to have a strong alliance and cooperation but the end game with the current trajectory is to finish off nation states as sovereign entities with the EU becoming the state. I don't think citizens have been asked for their opinion (obviously since they would reject it).
- ggm 1y ago
  I think you're arguing a different matter. I don't have a strong view on a federated European model or the primacy of nation states. By the time that can happen I'll be dead, I'm not as oppositional as you are, it's close to religion to me, ie not worth arguing about because it comes to beliefs fast.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    The EU is a religion that we are not allowed to criticise in "good society" in Europe. That's a big problem.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  > (obviously since they would reject it). I am a citizen, I wish this were to finally happen. Don't portray your opinion as the one "of the people". If we don't finally federalize, we will be eaten up by the other big powers.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    Please stop doing this. Every time you accuse others of "portraying their opinion as the one "of the people"" when they make a general statement about public opinion because you disagree, thereby doing exactly what you accuse others of.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      It is you who is trying to portray your own opinion as the public opinion. You are not the public, just one member of it - as am I. I do not appreciate being spoken for by somebody I disagree with.
      - mytailorisrich 1y ago
        "Public opinion" is a term that refers to what the public in aggregate thinks about an issue. Perhaps you are not clear about what the term means in English. On the issue of EU federalism there is no majority in favour. I do not express my own opinion when I state this and your own anecdotal opinion is irrelevant, too. So again, please let others refer to public opinion even if you disagree with it.
        saubeidl 1y ago
        I am familiar with what the term means, but barring a vote, you do not know what the public opinion would be. So please stop claiming popular support for your ideas based on what could most charitably be described as unfounded hunches.
    - mdhb 1y ago
      He is right and you are wrong here. You also have a years long history of bad faith contrarian comments here.

saubeidl 1y ago

Defense should be the responsibility of the EU. The power "creep" has been much too slow. Would you have accused Hamilton for advocating for "insidious power creep" as well for writing the Federalist Papers? States in the US federalized and are now a superpower. Why are we holding ourselves back?