4 ms·

We Found That More Than 170 U.S. Citizens Have Been Held by Immigration Agents

52 points by ceejayoz 1y ago

jimbo808 1y ago
[flagged]
- rolph 1y ago
  thats not all, they also broke laws, and ignored constitutional limits on authority, with charges of assault/interference being dropped, they wasted time and resources of the court.
- amanaplanacanal 1y ago
  So where are the convictions?
  - like_any_other 1y ago
    Better that ten guilty men go free than to send one innocent to jail? I would not expect even the most exemplary police force and legal system to produce a conviction for every single arrest.
    - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
      If you arrest a lot of people, and get zero convictions, I'd say you really suck at your job, or are just trying to intimidate people into not protesting. I suspect the later is what is happening. Are any of them even being charged? Or is it all bullshit?
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  Keep reading! > These cases have often wilted under scrutiny. In nearly 50 instances that we have identified so far, charges have never been filed or the cases were dismissed. Our count found a handful of citizens have pleaded guilty, mostly to misdemeanors.
  - jimbo808 1y ago
    That's typical when people get arrested for protesting and interfering with police. I'm sorry but this is not news.
    - drewbug01 1y ago
      Perhaps typical, but it certainly puts the lie to the claims of violent protests coming out of the administration, and shows how hollow their justifications are for federalizing the national guard. Because if it was as bad as they claim, they wouldn’t be letting people off the hook like this.
      - jimbo808 1y ago
        No there absolutely are protesters who are rightfully arrested, but the cost to prosecute is not worth it to the DA so they drop the case. Protesters really like to be in this grey area of legality so that you can write articles like this.
        drewbug01 1y ago
        If the protests truly were as violent as the administration claims, if ICE agents were truly out there fighting for their lives, etc … then they would prosecute. It wouldn’t be “not worth it” to prosecute if things were really that dire.
        UncleMeat 1y ago
        Especially given that they have brought charges against people for trivial shit and then had juries give not-guilty verdicts because the charges are obviously bullshit.
        jimbo808 1y ago
        Law enforcement don't have to be "fighting for their lives" in order to arrest you. The Cops can and will arrest you if you're impeding their duties. Prosecutors don't have to charge you, and often don't when it comes to political activism. Doesn't mean they can't, the people who are released without charge are being given a break, I wouldn't be outraged over that. And we're talking about 170 citizens who were definitely protesting and interfering with police duties, out of tens hundreds of thousands of police interactions. This is a big fucking nothing burger and you are all losing your minds. A protestor's actions are arrestable if they meet statutory elements: - Physically blocking police movement or access (e.g., surrounding a patrol car or blocking arrests). - Touching, grabbing, or standing too close after a lawful order to back away. - Ignoring a lawful dispersal order after being warned. - Using amplification or crowd behavior that prevents officers from issuing commands or making arrests. Officers typically move to arrest when: - They’ve given clear, repeated commands (e.g., “Move back,” “Clear the street”) that are ignored. - The person’s proximity or actions create a safety risk (blocking traffic, interfering with detainment). - A dispersal order is issued and disobeyed. - The crowd shifts from peaceful to physically obstructive or destructive. This process is completely separate from the decision to prosecute those who are arrested. Often, protestors are not prosecuted for political and economic reasons. It's not a crime to arrest someone and not charge them. It's not a violation of the constitution. Nothing has to be dire.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  ICE is operating beyond the strict bounds of the law, and also violating important normative statements like "the government does not send masked agents to haul people away in public without warrants." The Supreme Court has ruled a lot of it constitutional. The Supreme Court is wrong and captured by the GOP through procedural fuckery. If you are a true American, then the sight of one of these ICE raids should send a cold bolt of fear up your spine because they are superficially indistinguishable from the Gestapo.
  - jimbo808 1y ago
    I think I will trust the Supreme Court to define the "strict bounds of the law" over HN user SR2Z.
    - drewbug01 1y ago
      When you step back far enough, ultimately the governments power is derived from the consent of the governed (as the Declaration of Independnce puts it). SCOTUS can decide what the “strict bounds of the law” is, within our current system of government. But it is wise to heed what the people want the law to actually be - since their consent is truly what matters. Any government is ultimately powerless if the people decide it is so.
      - jimbo808 1y ago
        The people elected the politicians who appointed the Supreme Court justices (the governed giving their consent). If the losing side wants to get politicians into power who are more sympathetic to their causes, they should try to appeal to governed. We overwhelmingly voted for a government that would prioritize us over legal and illegal immigrants, H-2As, H2-Bs, and H-1Bs from countries where ethnic nepotism imported to be weaponized against us. Maybe it's not productive to compare immigration enforcement (law enforcement) to Nazis (who, by the way, mass murdered 75% of Europe's Jewish population). Maybe it hurts their credibility when the American middle class is obviously being priced out, and their solution it to vilify us, while they give sanctuary to people who broke the law and illegally entered (or overstayed), from the poorest countries in the world, to compete with the poorest Americans for work and for housing. Then they'll say "Americans don't want to do those jobs!" That's only partially right. Americans don't want to work for a wage that is on par with the minimum a Honduran illegal will take. Americans had no problem doing agricultural work in the 50's. My Grandpa is 93, and he still gets a pension from Hormel from his decades of work in a meat processing plant in Iowa. Americans always did this work, and every other type of work, until we were systematically pushed out of every blue collar profession by illegal immigrants (and now legal). And they're not stopping there, H-1Bs and other legal work visas are coming for the rest of us, too. Every single field from the lower to the upper middle class is being deliberately undercut by immigration. The absolutely nutty thing about all of this is that it's all just a giant show. Obama deported 420,000 illegals in 2013, which comes out to 35,000 per month. The most this administration has deported in any one month was 18,000 in June. Suddenly this admin is no longer "within the strict bounds of the law," and the biggest issue you take with all of this is that your rioters, activists, and misfits spent a day in jail for civil disobedience, and that the cops are wearing masks?
- legitster 1y ago
  - Send federal agents illegally into cities. - Citizens resist and interfere with agents. - Arrest citizens and charge them with interference. Congratulations, you have discovered the secret to how authoritarians can invent infinite crime.
  - like_any_other 1y ago
    > Send federal agents illegally into cities. Why 'illegally'? Isn't it (exclusively even, I think) the role of federal government to enforce immigration law? How else would they do it if not by sending agents into cities? Especially since many cities - called sanctuary cities - explicitly don't cooperate with immigration enforcement.
    - legitster 1y ago
      You're right that it's not illegal for ICE to go into cities where they are unwanted, but the extent of their on "smash and grab" raids in these places is definitely unprecedented. They are also clearly committing crimes left, right, and center as they make their arrests and basically facing no repercussions.
      - jimbo808 1y ago
        > "...extent of their on "smash and grab" raids in these places is definitely unprecedented" There was: - Operation Wetback - Trail of Tears - Barack Obama's entire presidencry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback#Implementation_and_tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback#Implementati... https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/yearbook/2019/table39 https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/yearbook/2019/table3...
legitster 1y ago
That's shockingly far lower than I would have expected given the amount of indiscriminate and reckless arrests they are making. I'm guessing for every US citizen that has been arrested there are dozens or hundreds of legal immigrants as well. You can't even claim the stories of violent illegal arrests are a couple of bad apples. The whole point of hiding their names and faces is to make prosecuting individual bad actors borderline impossible.
- like_any_other 1y ago
  > The whole point of hiding their names and faces is to make prosecuting individual bad actors borderline impossible. There is at least one other reason: Keffiyeh-clad anti-ICE protester threatens to stab agent, harm family in San Francisco mob attack; Four ICE agents were injured as protesters punched, pepper-sprayed and ambushed them outside the courthouse - https://www.foxnews.com/us/keffiyeh-clad-anti-ice-protester-threatens-stab-agent-harm-family-san-francisco-mob-attack https://www.foxnews.com/us/keffiyeh-clad-anti-ice-protester-... Yes, ICE agents and their families have been extensively doxxed. Multiple Department of Homeland Security sources confirm that ICE officers and their family members have had their personal information, photos, and locations posted online, putting them in grave danger. - https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/ice-agents-doxxed-831c67 https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/ice-agents-doxxed-8...
- fabian2k 1y ago
  That's only the number the journalists could figure out, as the article states at the top the government doesn't track this number.
IT4MD 1y ago
This thread has to go. so sayeth dang, keeper of all words, allower of some.
- yodon 1y ago
  >This thread has to go. so sayeth dang, keeper of all words, allower of some. The HN algorithm is and has always been optimized to rank up posts that contain well-mannered discussions and to penalize threads that contain poor-mannered discussions. In practice, that means ranking up topics around which there is general consensus and ranking down topics where there is strong disagreement. That stems from a thesis that visitors come to this site for well mannered discussions and that the cost in long term user behavior from poor behavior makes any such topic counterproductive to have at the top of the list, regardless of the topic and regardless of the importance of the topic. The topic here is almost certain to bring out activity that the system views as signals of disagreement, meaning it is algorithmically almost guaranteed to be down ranked, if it hasn't already been.
  - IT4MD 1y ago
    I have personal experience with Dang on this topic, so while I don't doubt you, I also have a point here.
    - mdhb 1y ago
      And you were entirely correct. Yet another garbage moderation move.
      - chequoredDaemon 1y ago
        Lol. Someday moderators will be replaced by A.I. I welcome that day.
      - IT4MD 1y ago
        Garbage or not, I disagree with removing an entire pie slice from discussions because reasons.

52 points by ceejayoz 1y ago

jimbo808 1y ago

[flagged]

rolph 1y ago
thats not all, they also broke laws, and ignored constitutional limits on authority, with charges of assault/interference being dropped, they wasted time and resources of the court.
amanaplanacanal 1y ago
So where are the convictions?
- like_any_other 1y ago
  Better that ten guilty men go free than to send one innocent to jail? I would not expect even the most exemplary police force and legal system to produce a conviction for every single arrest.
  - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
    If you arrest a lot of people, and get zero convictions, I'd say you really suck at your job, or are just trying to intimidate people into not protesting. I suspect the later is what is happening. Are any of them even being charged? Or is it all bullshit?
ceejayoz 1y ago
Keep reading! > These cases have often wilted under scrutiny. In nearly 50 instances that we have identified so far, charges have never been filed or the cases were dismissed. Our count found a handful of citizens have pleaded guilty, mostly to misdemeanors.
- jimbo808 1y ago
  That's typical when people get arrested for protesting and interfering with police. I'm sorry but this is not news.
  - drewbug01 1y ago
    Perhaps typical, but it certainly puts the lie to the claims of violent protests coming out of the administration, and shows how hollow their justifications are for federalizing the national guard. Because if it was as bad as they claim, they wouldn’t be letting people off the hook like this.
    - jimbo808 1y ago
      No there absolutely are protesters who are rightfully arrested, but the cost to prosecute is not worth it to the DA so they drop the case. Protesters really like to be in this grey area of legality so that you can write articles like this.
      - drewbug01 1y ago
        If the protests truly were as violent as the administration claims, if ICE agents were truly out there fighting for their lives, etc … then they would prosecute. It wouldn’t be “not worth it” to prosecute if things were really that dire.
        UncleMeat 1y ago
        Especially given that they have brought charges against people for trivial shit and then had juries give not-guilty verdicts because the charges are obviously bullshit.
        jimbo808 1y ago
        Law enforcement don't have to be "fighting for their lives" in order to arrest you. The Cops can and will arrest you if you're impeding their duties. Prosecutors don't have to charge you, and often don't when it comes to political activism. Doesn't mean they can't, the people who are released without charge are being given a break, I wouldn't be outraged over that. And we're talking about 170 citizens who were definitely protesting and interfering with police duties, out of tens hundreds of thousands of police interactions. This is a big fucking nothing burger and you are all losing your minds. A protestor's actions are arrestable if they meet statutory elements: - Physically blocking police movement or access (e.g., surrounding a patrol car or blocking arrests). - Touching, grabbing, or standing too close after a lawful order to back away. - Ignoring a lawful dispersal order after being warned. - Using amplification or crowd behavior that prevents officers from issuing commands or making arrests. Officers typically move to arrest when: - They’ve given clear, repeated commands (e.g., “Move back,” “Clear the street”) that are ignored. - The person’s proximity or actions create a safety risk (blocking traffic, interfering with detainment). - A dispersal order is issued and disobeyed. - The crowd shifts from peaceful to physically obstructive or destructive. This process is completely separate from the decision to prosecute those who are arrested. Often, protestors are not prosecuted for political and economic reasons. It's not a crime to arrest someone and not charge them. It's not a violation of the constitution. Nothing has to be dire.
SR2Z 1y ago
ICE is operating beyond the strict bounds of the law, and also violating important normative statements like "the government does not send masked agents to haul people away in public without warrants." The Supreme Court has ruled a lot of it constitutional. The Supreme Court is wrong and captured by the GOP through procedural fuckery. If you are a true American, then the sight of one of these ICE raids should send a cold bolt of fear up your spine because they are superficially indistinguishable from the Gestapo.
- jimbo808 1y ago
  I think I will trust the Supreme Court to define the "strict bounds of the law" over HN user SR2Z.
  - drewbug01 1y ago
    When you step back far enough, ultimately the governments power is derived from the consent of the governed (as the Declaration of Independnce puts it). SCOTUS can decide what the “strict bounds of the law” is, within our current system of government. But it is wise to heed what the people want the law to actually be - since their consent is truly what matters. Any government is ultimately powerless if the people decide it is so.
    - jimbo808 1y ago
      The people elected the politicians who appointed the Supreme Court justices (the governed giving their consent). If the losing side wants to get politicians into power who are more sympathetic to their causes, they should try to appeal to governed. We overwhelmingly voted for a government that would prioritize us over legal and illegal immigrants, H-2As, H2-Bs, and H-1Bs from countries where ethnic nepotism imported to be weaponized against us. Maybe it's not productive to compare immigration enforcement (law enforcement) to Nazis (who, by the way, mass murdered 75% of Europe's Jewish population). Maybe it hurts their credibility when the American middle class is obviously being priced out, and their solution it to vilify us, while they give sanctuary to people who broke the law and illegally entered (or overstayed), from the poorest countries in the world, to compete with the poorest Americans for work and for housing. Then they'll say "Americans don't want to do those jobs!" That's only partially right. Americans don't want to work for a wage that is on par with the minimum a Honduran illegal will take. Americans had no problem doing agricultural work in the 50's. My Grandpa is 93, and he still gets a pension from Hormel from his decades of work in a meat processing plant in Iowa. Americans always did this work, and every other type of work, until we were systematically pushed out of every blue collar profession by illegal immigrants (and now legal). And they're not stopping there, H-1Bs and other legal work visas are coming for the rest of us, too. Every single field from the lower to the upper middle class is being deliberately undercut by immigration. The absolutely nutty thing about all of this is that it's all just a giant show. Obama deported 420,000 illegals in 2013, which comes out to 35,000 per month. The most this administration has deported in any one month was 18,000 in June. Suddenly this admin is no longer "within the strict bounds of the law," and the biggest issue you take with all of this is that your rioters, activists, and misfits spent a day in jail for civil disobedience, and that the cops are wearing masks?
legitster 1y ago
- Send federal agents illegally into cities. - Citizens resist and interfere with agents. - Arrest citizens and charge them with interference. Congratulations, you have discovered the secret to how authoritarians can invent infinite crime.
- like_any_other 1y ago
  > Send federal agents illegally into cities. Why 'illegally'? Isn't it (exclusively even, I think) the role of federal government to enforce immigration law? How else would they do it if not by sending agents into cities? Especially since many cities - called sanctuary cities - explicitly don't cooperate with immigration enforcement.
  - legitster 1y ago
    You're right that it's not illegal for ICE to go into cities where they are unwanted, but the extent of their on "smash and grab" raids in these places is definitely unprecedented. They are also clearly committing crimes left, right, and center as they make their arrests and basically facing no repercussions.
    - jimbo808 1y ago
      > "...extent of their on "smash and grab" raids in these places is definitely unprecedented" There was: - Operation Wetback - Trail of Tears - Barack Obama's entire presidencry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback#Implementation_and_tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback#Implementati... https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/yearbook/2019/table39 https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/yearbook/2019/table3...

legitster 1y ago

That's shockingly far lower than I would have expected given the amount of indiscriminate and reckless arrests they are making. I'm guessing for every US citizen that has been arrested there are dozens or hundreds of legal immigrants as well. You can't even claim the stories of violent illegal arrests are a couple of bad apples. The whole point of hiding their names and faces is to make prosecuting individual bad actors borderline impossible.

like_any_other 1y ago
> The whole point of hiding their names and faces is to make prosecuting individual bad actors borderline impossible. There is at least one other reason: Keffiyeh-clad anti-ICE protester threatens to stab agent, harm family in San Francisco mob attack; Four ICE agents were injured as protesters punched, pepper-sprayed and ambushed them outside the courthouse - https://www.foxnews.com/us/keffiyeh-clad-anti-ice-protester-threatens-stab-agent-harm-family-san-francisco-mob-attack https://www.foxnews.com/us/keffiyeh-clad-anti-ice-protester-... Yes, ICE agents and their families have been extensively doxxed. Multiple Department of Homeland Security sources confirm that ICE officers and their family members have had their personal information, photos, and locations posted online, putting them in grave danger. - https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/ice-agents-doxxed-831c67 https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/ice-agents-doxxed-8...
fabian2k 1y ago
That's only the number the journalists could figure out, as the article states at the top the government doesn't track this number.

IT4MD 1y ago

This thread has to go. so sayeth dang, keeper of all words, allower of some.

yodon 1y ago
>This thread has to go. so sayeth dang, keeper of all words, allower of some. The HN algorithm is and has always been optimized to rank up posts that contain well-mannered discussions and to penalize threads that contain poor-mannered discussions. In practice, that means ranking up topics around which there is general consensus and ranking down topics where there is strong disagreement. That stems from a thesis that visitors come to this site for well mannered discussions and that the cost in long term user behavior from poor behavior makes any such topic counterproductive to have at the top of the list, regardless of the topic and regardless of the importance of the topic. The topic here is almost certain to bring out activity that the system views as signals of disagreement, meaning it is algorithmically almost guaranteed to be down ranked, if it hasn't already been.
- IT4MD 1y ago
  I have personal experience with Dang on this topic, so while I don't doubt you, I also have a point here.
  - mdhb 1y ago
    And you were entirely correct. Yet another garbage moderation move.
    - chequoredDaemon 1y ago
      Lol. Someday moderators will be replaced by A.I. I welcome that day.
    - IT4MD 1y ago
      Garbage or not, I disagree with removing an entire pie slice from discussions because reasons.