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If you say you support someone who is fundamentally ripping out the American democratic political system, root and branch, then that's what you support. That's

If you say you support someone who is fundamentally ripping out the American democratic political system, root and branch, then that's what you support. That's central to the "package deal." There's no, "Well, I don't like that he's ending the entire system of rule of law and respect for the results of elections, but I like policy X."

lunias 1y ago
There definitely is: "I disagree with X (and maybe A, B, and C too), but I agree with Y." You may not feel that's reasonable or that the negative impacts of X far outweigh the positive effects of Y, but it's possible for people to arrive at this conclusion due to having limited choices and specific interests. Maybe you want to buy a sports car, but the dealer only has one coupe and it has a sunroof (that you don't want). You can go look at other dealerships for one with the package you like, but in a world where there is only one dealership you have to take what they give you. Lots of people will end up buying that coupe with a sunroof to take to the track. Especially if they approach their decision from a "I want a sports car" perspective and the other option is a minivan.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  We're not talking about buying a sports car. We're talking about the end of democracy and rule of law in the United States of America.
  - lunias 1y ago
    It's just a decision making analogy. If you want better decisions that produce solutions that are a better fit for the problem then it makes sense to offer more choices of increased variety. If the situation is as dire as you feel, then I certainly hope that someone mounts an opposition to Trump because that's how we all win... a better alternative that most people recognize as such. Where and why are they hiding the alternatives?
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      I know what an analogy is. It's just that your analogy is absurd. We're talking about someone who is obliterating the American democratic political system, and you're basically saying, "Well, there are pros and cons with any package deal, just like when you buy a sports car." These aren't little pros and cons with some trifling issue. This is the continued existence of the United States as a democracy.
      - lunias 1y ago
        People are absurd... a majority of them got together and elected Trump in the first place. Lots of those people never considered any other option. A lot of times the reasoning goes: "Abortion is bad. I vote Republican." or even "I don't like that guy's face. I vote Democrat." People 100% make decisions and affect outcomes based on things that others consider trifling. Most people are not up late racking their brains over some Machiavellian scheme; they're like, "Nah, I want the sports car tho, minivans suck".
      - mlrtime 1y ago
        >obliterating the American democratic political system What I think is absurd is people keep writing these things as if they are facts, when a majority of this country doesn't agree. And any amount of anecdotal or skewed headlines won't change minds. You need a better approach.
        DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        The fact that a majority (a slim plurality, actually) of the country voted for someone who is ripping up the Constitution is a real problem. It doesn't mean that he's not ripping up the Constitution. > anecdotal or skewed headlines How are any of my examples above anecdotal or skewed? Did Trump issue an executive order ending birthright citizenship as enshrined in the 14th Amendment or not? Just one action like that would be an incredible break with the American political tradition, but he's done dozens of things that are just as bad or worse. I don't know what "my approach" is. I'm describing reality as it is. I don't know how or if the American political system will overcome Trump and survive, but that system is facing extinction right now.
mlrtime 1y ago
That is a radical way of thinking, nobody I know IRL talks or thinks this way. The idea that you have to support everything that some group says or you are out is complete BS. I've seen this over and over again, it's similar to "If you're not with us, you're against us" but on every topic.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  Do you think it's reasonable to support someone who tried to strip tens of millions of Americans of their citizenship by executive order, in blatant violation of the 14th Amendment? How about supporting someone who tried to overturn the results of the 2020 Presidential election by every means at his disposal? This is actually a clear case where you have to take a stand. "Well, I like some other things he's done" is not a valid answer here.

lunias 1y ago

There definitely is: "I disagree with X (and maybe A, B, and C too), but I agree with Y." You may not feel that's reasonable or that the negative impacts of X far outweigh the positive effects of Y, but it's possible for people to arrive at this conclusion due to having limited choices and specific interests. Maybe you want to buy a sports car, but the dealer only has one coupe and it has a sunroof (that you don't want). You can go look at other dealerships for one with the package you like, but in a world where there is only one dealership you have to take what they give you. Lots of people will end up buying that coupe with a sunroof to take to the track. Especially if they approach their decision from a "I want a sports car" perspective and the other option is a minivan.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
We're not talking about buying a sports car. We're talking about the end of democracy and rule of law in the United States of America.
- lunias 1y ago
  It's just a decision making analogy. If you want better decisions that produce solutions that are a better fit for the problem then it makes sense to offer more choices of increased variety. If the situation is as dire as you feel, then I certainly hope that someone mounts an opposition to Trump because that's how we all win... a better alternative that most people recognize as such. Where and why are they hiding the alternatives?
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    I know what an analogy is. It's just that your analogy is absurd. We're talking about someone who is obliterating the American democratic political system, and you're basically saying, "Well, there are pros and cons with any package deal, just like when you buy a sports car." These aren't little pros and cons with some trifling issue. This is the continued existence of the United States as a democracy.
    - lunias 1y ago
      People are absurd... a majority of them got together and elected Trump in the first place. Lots of those people never considered any other option. A lot of times the reasoning goes: "Abortion is bad. I vote Republican." or even "I don't like that guy's face. I vote Democrat." People 100% make decisions and affect outcomes based on things that others consider trifling. Most people are not up late racking their brains over some Machiavellian scheme; they're like, "Nah, I want the sports car tho, minivans suck".
    - mlrtime 1y ago
      >obliterating the American democratic political system What I think is absurd is people keep writing these things as if they are facts, when a majority of this country doesn't agree. And any amount of anecdotal or skewed headlines won't change minds. You need a better approach.
      - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        The fact that a majority (a slim plurality, actually) of the country voted for someone who is ripping up the Constitution is a real problem. It doesn't mean that he's not ripping up the Constitution. > anecdotal or skewed headlines How are any of my examples above anecdotal or skewed? Did Trump issue an executive order ending birthright citizenship as enshrined in the 14th Amendment or not? Just one action like that would be an incredible break with the American political tradition, but he's done dozens of things that are just as bad or worse. I don't know what "my approach" is. I'm describing reality as it is. I don't know how or if the American political system will overcome Trump and survive, but that system is facing extinction right now.

mlrtime 1y ago

That is a radical way of thinking, nobody I know IRL talks or thinks this way. The idea that you have to support everything that some group says or you are out is complete BS. I've seen this over and over again, it's similar to "If you're not with us, you're against us" but on every topic.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
Do you think it's reasonable to support someone who tried to strip tens of millions of Americans of their citizenship by executive order, in blatant violation of the 14th Amendment? How about supporting someone who tried to overturn the results of the 2020 Presidential election by every means at his disposal? This is actually a clear case where you have to take a stand. "Well, I like some other things he's done" is not a valid answer here.