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It's all about trade-offs. Sadly the package deals keep getting worse and even if you refuse to buy, one shows up at your doorstep and they charge you anyways.

by lunias 1y ago

It's all about trade-offs. Sadly the package deals keep getting worse and even if you refuse to buy, one shows up at your doorstep and they charge you anyways. The parties exist more to oppose each other than to identify and address issues. They serve their donors more than their electorate and sew discontent amongst the populace to distract from the role of capital in the current system. I think it's unrealistic to say you "support everything Trump does" just as it is to say you "do not support anything Trump does". The trend of extreme polarization has allowed them to continually worsen the package deals offered because they know that for a lot of people, it's all or nothing.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
If you say you support someone who is fundamentally ripping out the American democratic political system, root and branch, then that's what you support. That's central to the "package deal." There's no, "Well, I don't like that he's ending the entire system of rule of law and respect for the results of elections, but I like policy X."
- lunias 1y ago
  There definitely is: "I disagree with X (and maybe A, B, and C too), but I agree with Y." You may not feel that's reasonable or that the negative impacts of X far outweigh the positive effects of Y, but it's possible for people to arrive at this conclusion due to having limited choices and specific interests. Maybe you want to buy a sports car, but the dealer only has one coupe and it has a sunroof (that you don't want). You can go look at other dealerships for one with the package you like, but in a world where there is only one dealership you have to take what they give you. Lots of people will end up buying that coupe with a sunroof to take to the track. Especially if they approach their decision from a "I want a sports car" perspective and the other option is a minivan.
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    We're not talking about buying a sports car. We're talking about the end of democracy and rule of law in the United States of America.
    - lunias 1y ago
      It's just a decision making analogy. If you want better decisions that produce solutions that are a better fit for the problem then it makes sense to offer more choices of increased variety. If the situation is as dire as you feel, then I certainly hope that someone mounts an opposition to Trump because that's how we all win... a better alternative that most people recognize as such. Where and why are they hiding the alternatives?
      - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        I know what an analogy is. It's just that your analogy is absurd. We're talking about someone who is obliterating the American democratic political system, and you're basically saying, "Well, there are pros and cons with any package deal, just like when you buy a sports car." These aren't little pros and cons with some trifling issue. This is the continued existence of the United States as a democracy.
        lunias 1y ago
        People are absurd... a majority of them got together and elected Trump in the first place. Lots of those people never considered any other option. A lot of times the reasoning goes: "Abortion is bad. I vote Republican." or even "I don't like that guy's face. I vote Democrat." People 100% make decisions and affect outcomes based on things that others consider trifling. Most people are not up late racking their brains over some Machiavellian scheme; they're like, "Nah, I want the sports car tho, minivans suck".
        mlrtime 1y ago
        >obliterating the American democratic political system What I think is absurd is people keep writing these things as if they are facts, when a majority of this country doesn't agree. And any amount of anecdotal or skewed headlines won't change minds. You need a better approach.
- mlrtime 1y ago
  That is a radical way of thinking, nobody I know IRL talks or thinks this way. The idea that you have to support everything that some group says or you are out is complete BS. I've seen this over and over again, it's similar to "If you're not with us, you're against us" but on every topic.
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    Do you think it's reasonable to support someone who tried to strip tens of millions of Americans of their citizenship by executive order, in blatant violation of the 14th Amendment? How about supporting someone who tried to overturn the results of the 2020 Presidential election by every means at his disposal? This is actually a clear case where you have to take a stand. "Well, I like some other things he's done" is not a valid answer here.

by lunias 1y ago

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

If you say you support someone who is fundamentally ripping out the American democratic political system, root and branch, then that's what you support. That's central to the "package deal." There's no, "Well, I don't like that he's ending the entire system of rule of law and respect for the results of elections, but I like policy X."

lunias 1y ago
There definitely is: "I disagree with X (and maybe A, B, and C too), but I agree with Y." You may not feel that's reasonable or that the negative impacts of X far outweigh the positive effects of Y, but it's possible for people to arrive at this conclusion due to having limited choices and specific interests. Maybe you want to buy a sports car, but the dealer only has one coupe and it has a sunroof (that you don't want). You can go look at other dealerships for one with the package you like, but in a world where there is only one dealership you have to take what they give you. Lots of people will end up buying that coupe with a sunroof to take to the track. Especially if they approach their decision from a "I want a sports car" perspective and the other option is a minivan.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  We're not talking about buying a sports car. We're talking about the end of democracy and rule of law in the United States of America.
  - lunias 1y ago
    It's just a decision making analogy. If you want better decisions that produce solutions that are a better fit for the problem then it makes sense to offer more choices of increased variety. If the situation is as dire as you feel, then I certainly hope that someone mounts an opposition to Trump because that's how we all win... a better alternative that most people recognize as such. Where and why are they hiding the alternatives?
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      I know what an analogy is. It's just that your analogy is absurd. We're talking about someone who is obliterating the American democratic political system, and you're basically saying, "Well, there are pros and cons with any package deal, just like when you buy a sports car." These aren't little pros and cons with some trifling issue. This is the continued existence of the United States as a democracy.
      - lunias 1y ago
        People are absurd... a majority of them got together and elected Trump in the first place. Lots of those people never considered any other option. A lot of times the reasoning goes: "Abortion is bad. I vote Republican." or even "I don't like that guy's face. I vote Democrat." People 100% make decisions and affect outcomes based on things that others consider trifling. Most people are not up late racking their brains over some Machiavellian scheme; they're like, "Nah, I want the sports car tho, minivans suck".
      - mlrtime 1y ago
        >obliterating the American democratic political system What I think is absurd is people keep writing these things as if they are facts, when a majority of this country doesn't agree. And any amount of anecdotal or skewed headlines won't change minds. You need a better approach.
mlrtime 1y ago
That is a radical way of thinking, nobody I know IRL talks or thinks this way. The idea that you have to support everything that some group says or you are out is complete BS. I've seen this over and over again, it's similar to "If you're not with us, you're against us" but on every topic.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  Do you think it's reasonable to support someone who tried to strip tens of millions of Americans of their citizenship by executive order, in blatant violation of the 14th Amendment? How about supporting someone who tried to overturn the results of the 2020 Presidential election by every means at his disposal? This is actually a clear case where you have to take a stand. "Well, I like some other things he's done" is not a valid answer here.