4 ms·

"Drowning in e-waste" was a metaphor for "slowly destroying the conditions for civilisation with the violent obsession for more fossil fuel and more minerals to

by rixed 1y ago

"Drowning in e-waste" was a metaphor for "slowly destroying the conditions for civilisation with the violent obsession for more fossil fuel and more minerals to extract".

kragen 1y ago
That's a bad metaphor, because those problems don't have anything significant in common with the e-waste problem, but there is no particular danger of smartphones being a major contributor to them, either. According to https://www.apple.com/nz/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPhone_16_and_iPhone_16_Plus_PER_Sept2024.pdf https://www.apple.com/nz/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPh... the emissions per iPhone 16 are 56 kg of CO₂ equivalent, 18% of which is the expected energy consumption during the life of the product. France emits 4.14 tonnes of CO₂ per person per year, so buying an extra iPhone per year would increase your total yearly CO₂ (equivalent) emissions by about 1%. Similarly, the quantity of minerals in a smartphone is insignificant (170 grams! largely recycled!) compared with the quantity of minerals in, for example, a sidewalk (many tonnes). Some of those minerals, like the gold in the bond wires, are pretty heavily refined, requiring the excavation of some much larger amount of gangue and leaving most of it as tailings. But the total quantities of those minerals in the device are very small indeed. Instead, worry about things like electric vehicles and CO₂ emissions from making concrete. What you are doing by attempting to reduce fossil fuel and other mineral usage by buying smartphones less frequently is analogous to attempting to pay the rent on a Paris apartment by looking for lost coins in the subway station, or attempting to take a running leap across the English Channel. You are doomed by your complete lack of understanding of the orders of magnitude involved.
- rixed 1y ago
  e-waste is very much linked with over-production, of which any particular product taken in isolation, be it iphone or tomatoes, is of course insignificant, the issue being the economy at large not iphones or Apple. I don't know what's your point exactly? I was close to believe that this near perfect mix of naive quotation from Apple PR BS, computation of tons of minerals required to build a phone to the 5th decimal, and the lackadaisical insulting remarks, was some refined form of humor. But given we are on HN, you might just be this kind of engineer who can't see the forest for the tree. So, assuming you are just inapropriately expressing a genuine concern that I might be mislead into believing that refraining oneself from buying any more phones is going to slow our society spiraling down into chaos, rest assured: I'm not believing this. My posture is all about principles, and holds for an iphone like for any of the many useless things a normal, modern life wants us to consume routinely, because I believe one should try to do the right thing no matter what, regardless of the odds of success, because proceeding otherwise requires to define success, an end goal, and that's a circular impossibility. Yes, as you can see, I'm with you on the spectrum. :-)
  - kragen 1y ago
    I am an engineer, and engineering is what is going to keep the planet habitable, not self-sacrifice. Engineering is based on calculating the costs and benefits of tradeoffs. I do respect self-sacrifice on principled grounds. If you were starving in a besieged city, and killing and eating a baby were your best chance for survival (https://youtu.be/KOkBEqtGUI8?t=2886 https://youtu.be/KOkBEqtGUI8?t=2886), I'd endorse you not doing it. Even if, in some utilitarian calculus, you were more important than the baby, I'd endorse your hypothetical non-baby-eating moral choice. I'd like to think that I'd be one of the people abstaining from lifesaving cannibalism myself, though I've often seen people fail to uphold their principles when it comes down to it. I respect drawing a line in the sand beyond which you refuse to coldly weigh costs and benefits like an engineer. But that's not what you're doing. If not buying a smartphone were "all about principles" to you, you wouldn't have a smartphone in the first place. You've crossed the line in the sand; you're already eating babies. All that remains to you is balancing the number of babies you kill and eat against your nourishment. And, in that situation, refusing to balance costs and benefits isn't a matter of principle. It's merely irresponsibility, and will result in you eating unnecessary quantities of babies.
    - netdevphoenix 1y ago
      > I am an engineer, and engineering is what is going to keep the planet habitable, not self-sacrifice. Engineering is based on calculating the costs and benefits of tradeoffs. This is HN naivete at its best. Engineer-centric worldview directly inspired by Ayn Rand science fantasies with single-factor causality at its core. Engineering happens in and is regulated by its surrounding socio-entrepreneurial-political context. Apple releasing Apple Intelligence is not exclusively an engineering decision. OpenAI releasing ChatGPT is not exclusively an engineering decision. The birth of the internet is not an exclusively engineering decision. Every single one of those decisions involved more than just calculating costs and benefits of tradeoffs. What is the difference between saying "I am an engineer" and "I work as an engineer" if we leave aside any desires to bind your personality to your employment contract?
      - kragen 1y ago
- netdevphoenix 1y ago
  > the emissions per iPhone 16 are 56 kg of CO₂ equivalent, 18% of which is the expected energy consumption during the life of the product Are you counting the emissions produced to make it and all the packaging that comes with it, the vehicles used to transport it, lightning used in the warehouse where it sits and the appliances used to keep the warehouse clean too? Phones, just like anything else, are not made in a vaccuum
  - kragen 1y ago
    Apple says they are counting the emissions produced to make it and all the packaging that comes with it, the vehicles used to transport it, lighting used in the warehouse where it sits, and also the consumption of the device during its lifetime. You wouldn't want to count the carbon emissions of making the appliances used to keep the warehouse clean too because with that procedure the carbon emissions of anything would be infinite. It ought to be obvious, but I'll say it anyway: the carbon emissions of shipping things like a smartphone are quite small, and the carbon emissions of things like warehouse lighting and warehouse cleaning are utterly insignificant.
    - netdevphoenix 1y ago
      "You wouldn't want to count the carbon emissions of making the appliances used to keep the warehouse clean too because with that procedure the carbon emissions of anything would be infinite." Problem is that this is the kind of loopholes orgs use to be able to get a lower number on reports. See country selling their waste to poorer countries. You don't have to necessarily fully map the true production chain but not counting the emissions of the tools used to produce, store and maintain the smartphones smells like cheating to me. All those tools will be contributing to carbon emissions and setting an arbitrary line only serves to push the responsibility of those emissions with someone else which is how we got into this whole environmental mess in the first place. Obvious is just shorthand for unsubstantiated beliefs ime. What does "quite small" even mean? The iPhone carbon footprint is likely the lowest of all smartphones given Apple's efforts to look as green as possible. Your regular smartphone has almost double the carbot footprint at around 80kg. When you consider that most non-iPhone non-flagship smartphones become virtual bricks after 2-3 years, 80kg is a lot to me.

by rixed 1y ago

"Drowning in e-waste" was a metaphor for "slowly destroying the conditions for civilisation with the violent obsession for more fossil fuel and more minerals to extract".

kragen 1y ago

That's a bad metaphor, because those problems don't have anything significant in common with the e-waste problem, but there is no particular danger of smartphones being a major contributor to them, either. According to https://www.apple.com/nz/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPhone_16_and_iPhone_16_Plus_PER_Sept2024.pdf https://www.apple.com/nz/environment/pdf/products/iphone/iPh... the emissions per iPhone 16 are 56 kg of CO₂ equivalent, 18% of which is the expected energy consumption during the life of the product. France emits 4.14 tonnes of CO₂ per person per year, so buying an extra iPhone per year would increase your total yearly CO₂ (equivalent) emissions by about 1%. Similarly, the quantity of minerals in a smartphone is insignificant (170 grams! largely recycled!) compared with the quantity of minerals in, for example, a sidewalk (many tonnes). Some of those minerals, like the gold in the bond wires, are pretty heavily refined, requiring the excavation of some much larger amount of gangue and leaving most of it as tailings. But the total quantities of those minerals in the device are very small indeed. Instead, worry about things like electric vehicles and CO₂ emissions from making concrete. What you are doing by attempting to reduce fossil fuel and other mineral usage by buying smartphones less frequently is analogous to attempting to pay the rent on a Paris apartment by looking for lost coins in the subway station, or attempting to take a running leap across the English Channel. You are doomed by your complete lack of understanding of the orders of magnitude involved.

rixed 1y ago
e-waste is very much linked with over-production, of which any particular product taken in isolation, be it iphone or tomatoes, is of course insignificant, the issue being the economy at large not iphones or Apple. I don't know what's your point exactly? I was close to believe that this near perfect mix of naive quotation from Apple PR BS, computation of tons of minerals required to build a phone to the 5th decimal, and the lackadaisical insulting remarks, was some refined form of humor. But given we are on HN, you might just be this kind of engineer who can't see the forest for the tree. So, assuming you are just inapropriately expressing a genuine concern that I might be mislead into believing that refraining oneself from buying any more phones is going to slow our society spiraling down into chaos, rest assured: I'm not believing this. My posture is all about principles, and holds for an iphone like for any of the many useless things a normal, modern life wants us to consume routinely, because I believe one should try to do the right thing no matter what, regardless of the odds of success, because proceeding otherwise requires to define success, an end goal, and that's a circular impossibility. Yes, as you can see, I'm with you on the spectrum. :-)
- kragen 1y ago
  I am an engineer, and engineering is what is going to keep the planet habitable, not self-sacrifice. Engineering is based on calculating the costs and benefits of tradeoffs. I do respect self-sacrifice on principled grounds. If you were starving in a besieged city, and killing and eating a baby were your best chance for survival (https://youtu.be/KOkBEqtGUI8?t=2886 https://youtu.be/KOkBEqtGUI8?t=2886), I'd endorse you not doing it. Even if, in some utilitarian calculus, you were more important than the baby, I'd endorse your hypothetical non-baby-eating moral choice. I'd like to think that I'd be one of the people abstaining from lifesaving cannibalism myself, though I've often seen people fail to uphold their principles when it comes down to it. I respect drawing a line in the sand beyond which you refuse to coldly weigh costs and benefits like an engineer. But that's not what you're doing. If not buying a smartphone were "all about principles" to you, you wouldn't have a smartphone in the first place. You've crossed the line in the sand; you're already eating babies. All that remains to you is balancing the number of babies you kill and eat against your nourishment. And, in that situation, refusing to balance costs and benefits isn't a matter of principle. It's merely irresponsibility, and will result in you eating unnecessary quantities of babies.
  - netdevphoenix 1y ago
    > I am an engineer, and engineering is what is going to keep the planet habitable, not self-sacrifice. Engineering is based on calculating the costs and benefits of tradeoffs. This is HN naivete at its best. Engineer-centric worldview directly inspired by Ayn Rand science fantasies with single-factor causality at its core. Engineering happens in and is regulated by its surrounding socio-entrepreneurial-political context. Apple releasing Apple Intelligence is not exclusively an engineering decision. OpenAI releasing ChatGPT is not exclusively an engineering decision. The birth of the internet is not an exclusively engineering decision. Every single one of those decisions involved more than just calculating costs and benefits of tradeoffs. What is the difference between saying "I am an engineer" and "I work as an engineer" if we leave aside any desires to bind your personality to your employment contract?
    - kragen 1y ago
netdevphoenix 1y ago
> the emissions per iPhone 16 are 56 kg of CO₂ equivalent, 18% of which is the expected energy consumption during the life of the product Are you counting the emissions produced to make it and all the packaging that comes with it, the vehicles used to transport it, lightning used in the warehouse where it sits and the appliances used to keep the warehouse clean too? Phones, just like anything else, are not made in a vaccuum
- kragen 1y ago
  Apple says they are counting the emissions produced to make it and all the packaging that comes with it, the vehicles used to transport it, lighting used in the warehouse where it sits, and also the consumption of the device during its lifetime. You wouldn't want to count the carbon emissions of making the appliances used to keep the warehouse clean too because with that procedure the carbon emissions of anything would be infinite. It ought to be obvious, but I'll say it anyway: the carbon emissions of shipping things like a smartphone are quite small, and the carbon emissions of things like warehouse lighting and warehouse cleaning are utterly insignificant.
  - netdevphoenix 1y ago
    "You wouldn't want to count the carbon emissions of making the appliances used to keep the warehouse clean too because with that procedure the carbon emissions of anything would be infinite." Problem is that this is the kind of loopholes orgs use to be able to get a lower number on reports. See country selling their waste to poorer countries. You don't have to necessarily fully map the true production chain but not counting the emissions of the tools used to produce, store and maintain the smartphones smells like cheating to me. All those tools will be contributing to carbon emissions and setting an arbitrary line only serves to push the responsibility of those emissions with someone else which is how we got into this whole environmental mess in the first place. Obvious is just shorthand for unsubstantiated beliefs ime. What does "quite small" even mean? The iPhone carbon footprint is likely the lowest of all smartphones given Apple's efforts to look as green as possible. Your regular smartphone has almost double the carbot footprint at around 80kg. When you consider that most non-iPhone non-flagship smartphones become virtual bricks after 2-3 years, 80kg is a lot to me.