3 ms·

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy Basically use dirty water, finely filter it, such that only things as b

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy Basically use dirty water, finely filter it, such that only things as big as phages remain. Put that liquid in a solution of bacteria you want to treat. Filter it again, repeat... In the end you should end up with some phage solution which specifically attacks the bacteria. If these phages don't work anymore, find new ones.

looofooo0 1y ago
George Eliava Institute in Tbilisi is where you could get such a treatment. In the West you might be able to source it from food production related suppliers: https://phageguard.com https://phageguard.com. I guess an open wound where treatment with antibiotics fails and loosing your foot etc. is on the table, this might be an option of last resort.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> In the end you should end up with some phage solution which specifically attacks the bacteria This reminds of the universal cure to disease being a bullet [1]. Phages are promising. That doesn’t mean they can’t hurt you [2]. [1] https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/ [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8310247/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8310247/
- looofooo0 1y ago
  "we found some adverse events associated with phage therapy, but serious events were extremely rare." The biggest hindrance is that the western process of developing and releasing new medicine is ill-suited for phage treatment.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > the western process of developing and releasing new medicine is ill-suited for phage treatment …as evidenced by the booming phage industry somewhere in the east? (The weird thing is this railing against western medicine or whatnot is usually a dead ringer for pseudoscience. Yet phages are a scientifically valid thereaupeutic route [1].) [1] https://www.nature.com/subjects/bacteriophages https://www.nature.com/subjects/bacteriophages
    - looofooo0 1y ago
      I don't understand your point? The only thing I said that the process of developing new medicine is ill-suited for phage treatment. This due the fact bacteria and phages are coevolving, hence any phage treatment is highly specific and hence not worth of developing. It needs new ideas to standardize the process and to make this process a legal treatment option.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > due the fact bacteria and phages are coevolving, hence any phage treatment is highly specific and hence not worth of developing How is this different from antibiotics? Nothing about phages makes them not worth developing. Exhibit A: they’re being researched and developed.
        looofooo0 1y ago
        They are only active against a narrow strain of bacteria unlike antibiotics.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > are only active against a narrow strain of bacteria unlike antibiotics And this makes them “not worth…developing” why? (The comparison to antibiotics was that the antibiotic-bacteria system is coevolving too. Exhibit A: TFA on antibiotic resistance.)
        looofooo0 1y ago
        Much slower, we are still using 100 year old antibiotics. Money one phage is going to make is much smaller. This is not cost effective to go through the whole process.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Money one phage is going to make is much smaller Again, what are you basing this on? > This is not cost effective to go through the whole process Now do personalized medicine.
  - M95D 1y ago
    That's only partly it. The whole procedure of selecting a phage personalized for the patient and then growing it into a treatment is so slow the patient may die before it's ready. Works for chonic infections but not much else. There are probably phage treatments that are not personalized: test susceptibility and then mail-order the treatment. That treatment: - Would be very expensive to *produce* compared to most antibiotics. I emphasize *produce* because the price of antibiotics rarely reflect how much it costs to produce them. Compared to antibiotics, phage treatments have very low margins. - Would work for a very limited percentage of patients (probably less than 10%). There are hundreds of phages for each bacteria species (yes, they're species-specific and sub-species-specific). - Have a very *very* short shelf life, possibly a couple of days. So, no pharmacy or hospital can keep a sufficiently diverse supply of phages in store to treat most patients, possibly not even whole countries. BTW, species specificity and shelf life applies to the susceptibility test kits too.
    - looofooo0 1y ago
      Well Phage guard and similar products using a replacement schedule and many phages in one cocktail. But this does not mean that page guard like products would not be successfully as medicine, but as a medicine this is not possible as it is non-stable and containing live viruses. At best, you would need to get a new approvable every time the cocktail changes.

looofooo0 1y ago

George Eliava Institute in Tbilisi is where you could get such a treatment. In the West you might be able to source it from food production related suppliers: https://phageguard.com https://phageguard.com. I guess an open wound where treatment with antibiotics fails and loosing your foot etc. is on the table, this might be an option of last resort.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> In the end you should end up with some phage solution which specifically attacks the bacteria This reminds of the universal cure to disease being a bullet [1]. Phages are promising. That doesn’t mean they can’t hurt you [2]. [1] https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/ [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8310247/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8310247/

looofooo0 1y ago
"we found some adverse events associated with phage therapy, but serious events were extremely rare." The biggest hindrance is that the western process of developing and releasing new medicine is ill-suited for phage treatment.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > the western process of developing and releasing new medicine is ill-suited for phage treatment …as evidenced by the booming phage industry somewhere in the east? (The weird thing is this railing against western medicine or whatnot is usually a dead ringer for pseudoscience. Yet phages are a scientifically valid thereaupeutic route [1].) [1] https://www.nature.com/subjects/bacteriophages https://www.nature.com/subjects/bacteriophages
  - looofooo0 1y ago
    I don't understand your point? The only thing I said that the process of developing new medicine is ill-suited for phage treatment. This due the fact bacteria and phages are coevolving, hence any phage treatment is highly specific and hence not worth of developing. It needs new ideas to standardize the process and to make this process a legal treatment option.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > due the fact bacteria and phages are coevolving, hence any phage treatment is highly specific and hence not worth of developing How is this different from antibiotics? Nothing about phages makes them not worth developing. Exhibit A: they’re being researched and developed.
      - looofooo0 1y ago
        They are only active against a narrow strain of bacteria unlike antibiotics.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > are only active against a narrow strain of bacteria unlike antibiotics And this makes them “not worth…developing” why? (The comparison to antibiotics was that the antibiotic-bacteria system is coevolving too. Exhibit A: TFA on antibiotic resistance.)
        looofooo0 1y ago
        Much slower, we are still using 100 year old antibiotics. Money one phage is going to make is much smaller. This is not cost effective to go through the whole process.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Money one phage is going to make is much smaller Again, what are you basing this on? > This is not cost effective to go through the whole process Now do personalized medicine.
- M95D 1y ago
  That's only partly it. The whole procedure of selecting a phage personalized for the patient and then growing it into a treatment is so slow the patient may die before it's ready. Works for chonic infections but not much else. There are probably phage treatments that are not personalized: test susceptibility and then mail-order the treatment. That treatment: - Would be very expensive to *produce* compared to most antibiotics. I emphasize *produce* because the price of antibiotics rarely reflect how much it costs to produce them. Compared to antibiotics, phage treatments have very low margins. - Would work for a very limited percentage of patients (probably less than 10%). There are hundreds of phages for each bacteria species (yes, they're species-specific and sub-species-specific). - Have a very *very* short shelf life, possibly a couple of days. So, no pharmacy or hospital can keep a sufficiently diverse supply of phages in store to treat most patients, possibly not even whole countries. BTW, species specificity and shelf life applies to the susceptibility test kits too.
  - looofooo0 1y ago
    Well Phage guard and similar products using a replacement schedule and many phages in one cocktail. But this does not mean that page guard like products would not be successfully as medicine, but as a medicine this is not possible as it is non-stable and containing live viruses. At best, you would need to get a new approvable every time the cocktail changes.