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You responded to a specific technical observation stated briefly and without emotion with a nasty personal attack. Oh and now I see you work on the project. Ha

You responded to a specific technical observation stated briefly and without emotion with a nasty personal attack. Oh and now I see you work on the project. Hard pass on Caddy if this is how you respond to mild criticism.

francislavoie 1y ago
We've felt attacked by people trying to slander the project due to this specific technical issue. It's exhausting. Either way, like I said, we'd be glad to accept contributions to solve this.
- VenturingVole 1y ago
  It's an awesome project and I imagine it has saved countless production incidents. The amount of times I've said "it was probably certificate expiry" and been correct is reasonably high. In my own cases of responsibility, Caddy would have eliminated them had it been around. Instead I've learned to be paranoid, though having things like this are far better in terms of easing cognitive burden. Cheers for all of the hard work by you and other maintainers.
  - Silhouette 1y ago
    I too have used Caddy on multiple production systems. It's a great bit of software. I try to avoid engaging in online flame wars but I will say that the developers - including Francis - have been nothing but helpful and courteous to me personally and I've also learned a lot from their numerous positive contributions to Caddy-related forums.
- eduction 1y ago
  People are allowed to crticize a project whether or not they want to fix it. It was a mild, brief mention of one issue. Accurate, too, so not slander. You seem to think there is a conspiracy against Caddy. That seems doubtful. But I could see disproportionate defensiveness like what is on display here causing some people to not be fans.
  - francislavoie 1y ago
    Two people don’t make a conspiracy. And honestly, the tone came off as pretty snide. Quoting part of the post just to twist it into their own point was clearly deliberate.
    - onli 1y ago
      I've worked in a technical support forum with usually great guys, but what happened there was that specific complaints and specific users became designated the enemy of the group, by the group. Everything in contact with the specific issues or the specific users became twisted beyond recognition, and the group reacted to it always with aggressiveness. The "problem users" usually left after some time, then the group magically choose the next victim. From the outside, such a group mechanism is happening here. Your reaction to the issue being brought up is not rational, and from the outside not understandable. Even if it was brought up 18 month before in the same way. And no, the curl post does not match your hostility. And no, the tone did not came off as "pretty snide", even if tribal voting pattern greys out your opposition anyway. Please reconsider your approach here. If the issue is not fixable in caddy (though Apache seems to handle it fine?) maybe formulate a standard response that says something like "sorry, this is complicated, see the curl explication here" and leave it at that. Have an action plan that recognizes group dynamics and the burnout symptoms existing in the project, as mentioned in the article.
- JimDabell 1y ago
  What slander? What grudge? What attack? Until now I’ve been a happy user of Caddy but seeing you overreact like this to a mild mention of a bug is making me strongly reconsider.
  - francislavoie 1y ago
    If you haven't seen the history of this topic outside of this thread then you wouldn't understand how frustrating it's been to handle. I'd just like it to stop being brought up (without also offering help or a solution). Seriously, every time we either post something on HN ourselves regarding Caddy or find a thread posted from someone else, one of the first thoughts is "oh boy, are we gonna have to find issue brought up again?" Lo and behold, it was brought up again today. If you want another vote for how annoying the trailing dot issue is in general, hear it from no other than the author of Curl, Daniel Stenberg himself https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2022/05/12/a-tale-of-a-trailing-dot/ https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2022/05/12/a-tale-of-a-trailing-...
    - JimDabell 1y ago
      Elsewhere in this thread you point out that he mentioned it in February last year. That was 18 months ago! They weren’t rude or abusive. That is not a grudge. That is not slander. That is not a hill to die on. That is not an attack. This makes me wonder how many other minor bugs are dismissed by you as a grudge due to you overreacting like this. It makes me a lot less confident in your project. It’s perfectly fine for you to say ”this is low priority and we have no plans to fix it in the immediate future”. What’s not fine is treating it like a personal attack because they dared mention it twice in 18 months.
      - francislavoie 1y ago
        Caddy doesn't hit the front page of HN all too often. But when it does, this issue gets brought up by one of two people. That's why it's annoying. It's so predictable and so annoying. We've already said our piece on the topic repeatedly, being asked to repeat ourselves again is insulting to us. Because "this is low priority and we have no plans to fix it in the immediate future" is clearly not an answer for someone who cares about this issue and mentions it again.
queenkjuul 1y ago
Your loss, caddy is fantastic

francislavoie 1y ago

We've felt attacked by people trying to slander the project due to this specific technical issue. It's exhausting. Either way, like I said, we'd be glad to accept contributions to solve this.

VenturingVole 1y ago
It's an awesome project and I imagine it has saved countless production incidents. The amount of times I've said "it was probably certificate expiry" and been correct is reasonably high. In my own cases of responsibility, Caddy would have eliminated them had it been around. Instead I've learned to be paranoid, though having things like this are far better in terms of easing cognitive burden. Cheers for all of the hard work by you and other maintainers.
- Silhouette 1y ago
  I too have used Caddy on multiple production systems. It's a great bit of software. I try to avoid engaging in online flame wars but I will say that the developers - including Francis - have been nothing but helpful and courteous to me personally and I've also learned a lot from their numerous positive contributions to Caddy-related forums.
eduction 1y ago
People are allowed to crticize a project whether or not they want to fix it. It was a mild, brief mention of one issue. Accurate, too, so not slander. You seem to think there is a conspiracy against Caddy. That seems doubtful. But I could see disproportionate defensiveness like what is on display here causing some people to not be fans.
- francislavoie 1y ago
  Two people don’t make a conspiracy. And honestly, the tone came off as pretty snide. Quoting part of the post just to twist it into their own point was clearly deliberate.
  - onli 1y ago
    I've worked in a technical support forum with usually great guys, but what happened there was that specific complaints and specific users became designated the enemy of the group, by the group. Everything in contact with the specific issues or the specific users became twisted beyond recognition, and the group reacted to it always with aggressiveness. The "problem users" usually left after some time, then the group magically choose the next victim. From the outside, such a group mechanism is happening here. Your reaction to the issue being brought up is not rational, and from the outside not understandable. Even if it was brought up 18 month before in the same way. And no, the curl post does not match your hostility. And no, the tone did not came off as "pretty snide", even if tribal voting pattern greys out your opposition anyway. Please reconsider your approach here. If the issue is not fixable in caddy (though Apache seems to handle it fine?) maybe formulate a standard response that says something like "sorry, this is complicated, see the curl explication here" and leave it at that. Have an action plan that recognizes group dynamics and the burnout symptoms existing in the project, as mentioned in the article.
JimDabell 1y ago
What slander? What grudge? What attack? Until now I’ve been a happy user of Caddy but seeing you overreact like this to a mild mention of a bug is making me strongly reconsider.
- francislavoie 1y ago
  If you haven't seen the history of this topic outside of this thread then you wouldn't understand how frustrating it's been to handle. I'd just like it to stop being brought up (without also offering help or a solution). Seriously, every time we either post something on HN ourselves regarding Caddy or find a thread posted from someone else, one of the first thoughts is "oh boy, are we gonna have to find issue brought up again?" Lo and behold, it was brought up again today. If you want another vote for how annoying the trailing dot issue is in general, hear it from no other than the author of Curl, Daniel Stenberg himself https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2022/05/12/a-tale-of-a-trailing-dot/ https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2022/05/12/a-tale-of-a-trailing-...
  - JimDabell 1y ago
    Elsewhere in this thread you point out that he mentioned it in February last year. That was 18 months ago! They weren’t rude or abusive. That is not a grudge. That is not slander. That is not a hill to die on. That is not an attack. This makes me wonder how many other minor bugs are dismissed by you as a grudge due to you overreacting like this. It makes me a lot less confident in your project. It’s perfectly fine for you to say ”this is low priority and we have no plans to fix it in the immediate future”. What’s not fine is treating it like a personal attack because they dared mention it twice in 18 months.
    - francislavoie 1y ago
      Caddy doesn't hit the front page of HN all too often. But when it does, this issue gets brought up by one of two people. That's why it's annoying. It's so predictable and so annoying. We've already said our piece on the topic repeatedly, being asked to repeat ourselves again is insulting to us. Because "this is low priority and we have no plans to fix it in the immediate future" is clearly not an answer for someone who cares about this issue and mentions it again.

queenkjuul 1y ago

Your loss, caddy is fantastic