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what are the current tariffs on solar panels? I've wanted to install home solar for years now. It's difficult in my area. At first, the salespeople would gho

what are the current tariffs on solar panels? I've wanted to install home solar for years now. It's difficult in my area. At first, the salespeople would ghost me after learning I didn't want or need financing. Then they lied about waived connection fees for use of a battery to sell power back to the utility during evening peak hours. Then the Federal incentives vanished. Now... the tariffs. So our approach is to remain in the bottom 2% of electicity consumption for our area. Stability in government is something we don't appreciate until it's gone.

sagarm 1y ago
SignatureSolar has panels for $0.25/w. The tariffs are a nothing burger. If you're paying someone else to do it, the panels will likely be <10% of the cost.
- kragen 1y ago
  That's still 150% higher than the wholesale price overseas, and maybe if paying someone to install an appliance costs 9× more than the appliance does, you should think about doing it yourself.
  - sagarm 1y ago
    Oh yeah, DIY is the way to go. But even for a DIY project the other stuff you need -- inverters, batteries, optimizers, mounts, wiring, transfer switch -- will end up being the majority.
    - kragen 1y ago
      Maybe you should figure out how to do without some of it. You don't need MPPT optimization if buying more panels is cheaper. You don't need much battery if you run the washer in the daytime and use thermal storage to heat or cool the house at night. You don't need a transfer switch if you don't connect the solar to the grid outlets. You don't need inverters if you run things on 48V DC, which also greatly reduces the safety risks of wiring problems. I think Joey's house has DC appliances, though I don't remember.
      - MichaelNolan 1y ago
        What is the safety benefit of 48v? I am not an electrician, but I just finished diy/installing a 48v system, and when I was doing some research I read the opposite. 48v is *cheaper* since you don’t need as thick wires, but *more dangerous* since it has a higher chance of arc faults and the voltage is sufficiently high that it can cross the skin barrier and kill you. Though all three are pretty safe as long as you buy the appropriate equipment, and take reasonable precautions when installing it.
        kragen 1y ago
        DC has a higher danger of arc faults than AC, and 48V is enough to sustain a short arc. But 48Vdc has less danger of either shock or arc faults than 120Vdc, and DC has a lower risk of shock than AC, because it still usually can't drive enough current through your skin to kill you. But you are correct that people can and do die from 48Vdc shocks, for example when their welding gloves are soaked with sweat or they're immersed in water. You need thicker wires with 48V than with 120V or especially 240V, and the higher currents required at 48V can create more risk of fire from overheating conductors, for example in a wire that's too thin or a spring contact in an outlet that's worn out. Perhaps you are implicitly comparing 48Vdc to 24Vdc, 12Vdc, or 6Vdc, rather than the 240Vac or 120Vac I was comparing it to. Those lower voltages do indeed need even thicker wires and pose even less risk of shock or arc faults than 48Vdc. I think 24V is the minimum to maintain an arc in air at atmospheric pressure, and it's really hard to get one started using a 24V supply; you need a high-frequency start circuit or a substantial amount of inductance in series. 48V is the maximum usually considered safe enough to not require compliance with any kind of electrical code; an expert electrician from North America once told me that it's in a category known to electricians as "bullshit wiring".
        MichaelNolan 1y ago
        Oh okay that makes sense. Yeah I misunderstood your original comment. I was comparing 48vdc to 24vdc and 12vdc, not 120 or 240 ac.
        mindslight 1y ago
- epistasis 1y ago
  Wow, that's fantastic pricing. Globally, the average is $0.089/W, in the US, $0.27/W: https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3m3md7koglk2v https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3m3md7k...
  - buckle8017 1y ago
    This lady makes the error of taking about California as having a grid. For contracting purposes it does. For grid stability purposes it does not.
    - epistasis 1y ago
      Your pedantry is incorrect, and does not reflect usage of experts.
      - buckle8017 1y ago
        You're wrong and should feel bad for down voting me.
        epistasis 1y ago
        I didn't downvote you, and wouldn't if I could! I can't downvote my direct replies. As for being "wrong," you're insisting that there's a narrow definition of a term when in general practice it is not used that way, and where the current usage causes zero confusion. You may be trying to change usage, but telling people "you're wrong" when they are not is not a convincing way. Showing that the existing usage of terms causes confusion might me more convincing, but it's hard.
- rjdj377dhabsn 1y ago
  That's still a lot higher than what I paid in SE Asia 2 years ago. I got new 550w panels delivered for $65 each. And of course installation is incredibly cheap here. $50 total in labor for 10 panels on a quite high roof. I don't remember the costs of the mounting hardware, but it was reasonable as well.
nine_k 1y ago
Use second-hand panels, hire a contractor to install them, and another contractor to then install and connect batteries and an inverter. Ignore the possibility to sell energy back to the grid, charge your batteries instead. Now, you would have built not a cutting-edge system, but a relatively inexpensive one, with a minimum of red tape and financing shenanigans. (Edited: typos.)
daemonologist 1y ago
It is very complicated, but for the countries which are major producers, for most companies, it's between 64% and 430%. China (~85% of production) is 140%. https://www.infolink-group.com/energy-article/solar-topic-itensifying-us-tariff-pressure-reshapes-global-supply-chains https://www.infolink-group.com/energy-article/solar-topic-it... But even putting aside the tariffs, I'm in the same boat as you - residential/consumer solar in the US is a disaster - everything goes through shady installation companies, the labor and permitting costs are enormous, it's nearly impossible to buy panels yourself at the market rate.
- ericd 1y ago
  What would you call "the market rate"? You can get pallets of panels right now for ~$0.30/watt at eg Signature Solar (no affiliation, just where I got ours). That might be more than what's available globally, but it's also not a very significant driver of the system cost at that level (our inverter cost more, the ground mounts cost more, the the batteries cost more, the electrician final hookup work cost more, etc).
  - kragen 1y ago
    It's six times what's available globally for "low cost" panels, and three times the "mainstream" price, which is driving the other system components you mention to lower prices. After all, you can power appliances from solar panels without any of those other things.
    - ericd 1y ago
      Without an inverter/wiring/mounts? Do you mean RV-style DC appliances? Unfortunately, I think Americans are much too heavily invested in current infrastructure to consider going all-in on those…
      - kragen 1y ago
        Yes. Or cellphones, laptops, cordless drills, LED lights, etc., which all run on low-voltage DC.
blaufast 1y ago
I DIYd this with permits and interconnect in the SF Bay Area. I’ve had no power bill for years now, and I have two hot tubs. Panels and enphase on Craigslist are so cheap you don’t have to worry about it. Max out what you’re allowed with your main electrical panel size and you’ll never regret it. Don’t even consider doing less than the maximum. You will never meet anybody who believes they added enough solar after a year of ownership

sagarm 1y ago

SignatureSolar has panels for $0.25/w. The tariffs are a nothing burger. If you're paying someone else to do it, the panels will likely be <10% of the cost.

kragen 1y ago
That's still 150% higher than the wholesale price overseas, and maybe if paying someone to install an appliance costs 9× more than the appliance does, you should think about doing it yourself.
- sagarm 1y ago
  Oh yeah, DIY is the way to go. But even for a DIY project the other stuff you need -- inverters, batteries, optimizers, mounts, wiring, transfer switch -- will end up being the majority.
  - kragen 1y ago
    Maybe you should figure out how to do without some of it. You don't need MPPT optimization if buying more panels is cheaper. You don't need much battery if you run the washer in the daytime and use thermal storage to heat or cool the house at night. You don't need a transfer switch if you don't connect the solar to the grid outlets. You don't need inverters if you run things on 48V DC, which also greatly reduces the safety risks of wiring problems. I think Joey's house has DC appliances, though I don't remember.
    - MichaelNolan 1y ago
      What is the safety benefit of 48v? I am not an electrician, but I just finished diy/installing a 48v system, and when I was doing some research I read the opposite. 48v is *cheaper* since you don’t need as thick wires, but *more dangerous* since it has a higher chance of arc faults and the voltage is sufficiently high that it can cross the skin barrier and kill you. Though all three are pretty safe as long as you buy the appropriate equipment, and take reasonable precautions when installing it.
      - kragen 1y ago
        DC has a higher danger of arc faults than AC, and 48V is enough to sustain a short arc. But 48Vdc has less danger of either shock or arc faults than 120Vdc, and DC has a lower risk of shock than AC, because it still usually can't drive enough current through your skin to kill you. But you are correct that people can and do die from 48Vdc shocks, for example when their welding gloves are soaked with sweat or they're immersed in water. You need thicker wires with 48V than with 120V or especially 240V, and the higher currents required at 48V can create more risk of fire from overheating conductors, for example in a wire that's too thin or a spring contact in an outlet that's worn out. Perhaps you are implicitly comparing 48Vdc to 24Vdc, 12Vdc, or 6Vdc, rather than the 240Vac or 120Vac I was comparing it to. Those lower voltages do indeed need even thicker wires and pose even less risk of shock or arc faults than 48Vdc. I think 24V is the minimum to maintain an arc in air at atmospheric pressure, and it's really hard to get one started using a 24V supply; you need a high-frequency start circuit or a substantial amount of inductance in series. 48V is the maximum usually considered safe enough to not require compliance with any kind of electrical code; an expert electrician from North America once told me that it's in a category known to electricians as "bullshit wiring".
        MichaelNolan 1y ago
        Oh okay that makes sense. Yeah I misunderstood your original comment. I was comparing 48vdc to 24vdc and 12vdc, not 120 or 240 ac.
        mindslight 1y ago
epistasis 1y ago
Wow, that's fantastic pricing. Globally, the average is $0.089/W, in the US, $0.27/W: https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3m3md7koglk2v https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3m3md7k...
- buckle8017 1y ago
  This lady makes the error of taking about California as having a grid. For contracting purposes it does. For grid stability purposes it does not.
  - epistasis 1y ago
    Your pedantry is incorrect, and does not reflect usage of experts.
    - buckle8017 1y ago
      You're wrong and should feel bad for down voting me.
      - epistasis 1y ago
        I didn't downvote you, and wouldn't if I could! I can't downvote my direct replies. As for being "wrong," you're insisting that there's a narrow definition of a term when in general practice it is not used that way, and where the current usage causes zero confusion. You may be trying to change usage, but telling people "you're wrong" when they are not is not a convincing way. Showing that the existing usage of terms causes confusion might me more convincing, but it's hard.
rjdj377dhabsn 1y ago
That's still a lot higher than what I paid in SE Asia 2 years ago. I got new 550w panels delivered for $65 each. And of course installation is incredibly cheap here. $50 total in labor for 10 panels on a quite high roof. I don't remember the costs of the mounting hardware, but it was reasonable as well.

nine_k 1y ago

Use second-hand panels, hire a contractor to install them, and another contractor to then install and connect batteries and an inverter. Ignore the possibility to sell energy back to the grid, charge your batteries instead. Now, you would have built not a cutting-edge system, but a relatively inexpensive one, with a minimum of red tape and financing shenanigans. (Edited: typos.)

daemonologist 1y ago

It is very complicated, but for the countries which are major producers, for most companies, it's between 64% and 430%. China (~85% of production) is 140%. https://www.infolink-group.com/energy-article/solar-topic-itensifying-us-tariff-pressure-reshapes-global-supply-chains https://www.infolink-group.com/energy-article/solar-topic-it... But even putting aside the tariffs, I'm in the same boat as you - residential/consumer solar in the US is a disaster - everything goes through shady installation companies, the labor and permitting costs are enormous, it's nearly impossible to buy panels yourself at the market rate.

ericd 1y ago
What would you call "the market rate"? You can get pallets of panels right now for ~$0.30/watt at eg Signature Solar (no affiliation, just where I got ours). That might be more than what's available globally, but it's also not a very significant driver of the system cost at that level (our inverter cost more, the ground mounts cost more, the the batteries cost more, the electrician final hookup work cost more, etc).
- kragen 1y ago
  It's six times what's available globally for "low cost" panels, and three times the "mainstream" price, which is driving the other system components you mention to lower prices. After all, you can power appliances from solar panels without any of those other things.
  - ericd 1y ago
    Without an inverter/wiring/mounts? Do you mean RV-style DC appliances? Unfortunately, I think Americans are much too heavily invested in current infrastructure to consider going all-in on those…
    - kragen 1y ago
      Yes. Or cellphones, laptops, cordless drills, LED lights, etc., which all run on low-voltage DC.

blaufast 1y ago

I DIYd this with permits and interconnect in the SF Bay Area. I’ve had no power bill for years now, and I have two hot tubs. Panels and enphase on Craigslist are so cheap you don’t have to worry about it. Max out what you’re allowed with your main electrical panel size and you’ll never regret it. Don’t even consider doing less than the maximum. You will never meet anybody who believes they added enough solar after a year of ownership