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Mac dev sucks. You're forced to use macos and xcode (for the final build anyway). You're not able to virtualize the build machines. Apple is actively hostile

by jayd16 1y ago

Mac dev sucks. You're forced to use macos and xcode (for the final build anyway). You're not able to virtualize the build machines. Apple is actively hostile to how you would build for Linux or PC or console.

nasseri 1y ago
This is simply not the case. Every major game framework/engine targets Mac natively. If you are building your engine/game from scratch, you absolutely do not need to use Xcode
- jayd16 1y ago
  Why don't you look through the Unreal and Unity docs and see if you can make a build without a Mac and xcode.
  - nasseri 1y ago
    Yea you’re right I skipped over the part where you said the final build required it. Nonetheless that’s a small fraction of the time spent actually developing the game.
    - jayd16 1y ago
      Ideally, it's a continuous part of development because you're making daily (or more) builds and testing them. That makes it a continuous headache to keep your Mac builders up. It means you need to double dev hardware costs or more as you need a gaming PC to target your core audience and Macs handle the mac bugs. It means your mac build machines are special snowflakes because you can't just use VMs. The list goes on and on of Mac being actively hostile to the process. Just Rider running on a Mac is pleasant sure, but that's not the issue.
  - nasseri 1y ago
    I think I misunderstood your point as “developing a game on Mac sucks”, vs “developing for Mac without a Mac sucks” which I absolutely can’t disagree with
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
coldtea 1y ago
>Mac dev sucks. You're forced to use macos and xcode (for the final build anyway) Having to use xcode "for the final build" is irrelevant to the game development experience.
- jayd16 1y ago
  If you're an indie with just PC hardware it sure as hell matters.
matthew-wegner 1y ago
> You're not able to virtualize the build machines. Sure you can. And officially, too. Apple still ships a bunch of virtualization drivers in macOS itself. Have a look: /System/Library/Extensions/IONetworkingFamily.kext/Contents/PlugIns/AppleVmxnet3Ethernet.kext Whether or not you're using ESXi, or want to, is an entirely different question. But "you're not able to" is simply incorrect. I virtualize several build agents and have for years with no issues. macOS 26 is the last major version to support Intel, so once macOS 28 is latest this will probably become impossible (macOS 26 should be able to use Xcode 27, but maybe the platform removal will change this previous year's OS support from continuing).
- GTP 1y ago
  > Apple still ships a bunch of virtualization drivers in macOS itself. I think OP means virtualizing on something that isn't Apple.
- jayd16 1y ago
  Interesting. The last I looked into it, you could only officially do this on Mac hardware (defeating the purpose). You can get an xcode building for arm Macs on PC hardware with this?
  - lowbloodsugar 1y ago
    - Windows: windows and Linux vm. - Linux: windows and Linux vm. - Apple: windows, Linux, Apple VM. Seems pretty straightforward. I am being facetious. You'll have a PC for gamedev because that's your biggest platform unless you are primarily switch or PS5, in which case you'll have a devkit as well as a PC. But the cost of an Apple device is insignificant compared to the cost of developing the software for it. So it really comes down to the market size and _where they are_. The games I play are either on my PS5, or on my Mac, never both. For any specific game, they are on one or the other. Ghost of Tsushima is on the PS5. Factorio is on my Mac. If I were an indie game developer, I'd likely be developing the kind of game that has a good market on the Mac.

by jayd16 1y ago

nasseri 1y ago

This is simply not the case. Every major game framework/engine targets Mac natively. If you are building your engine/game from scratch, you absolutely do not need to use Xcode

jayd16 1y ago
Why don't you look through the Unreal and Unity docs and see if you can make a build without a Mac and xcode.
- nasseri 1y ago
  Yea you’re right I skipped over the part where you said the final build required it. Nonetheless that’s a small fraction of the time spent actually developing the game.
  - jayd16 1y ago
    Ideally, it's a continuous part of development because you're making daily (or more) builds and testing them. That makes it a continuous headache to keep your Mac builders up. It means you need to double dev hardware costs or more as you need a gaming PC to target your core audience and Macs handle the mac bugs. It means your mac build machines are special snowflakes because you can't just use VMs. The list goes on and on of Mac being actively hostile to the process. Just Rider running on a Mac is pleasant sure, but that's not the issue.
- nasseri 1y ago
  I think I misunderstood your point as “developing a game on Mac sucks”, vs “developing for Mac without a Mac sucks” which I absolutely can’t disagree with
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

coldtea 1y ago

>Mac dev sucks. You're forced to use macos and xcode (for the final build anyway) Having to use xcode "for the final build" is irrelevant to the game development experience.

jayd16 1y ago
If you're an indie with just PC hardware it sure as hell matters.

matthew-wegner 1y ago

> You're not able to virtualize the build machines. Sure you can. And officially, too. Apple still ships a bunch of virtualization drivers in macOS itself. Have a look: /System/Library/Extensions/IONetworkingFamily.kext/Contents/PlugIns/AppleVmxnet3Ethernet.kext Whether or not you're using ESXi, or want to, is an entirely different question. But "you're not able to" is simply incorrect. I virtualize several build agents and have for years with no issues. macOS 26 is the last major version to support Intel, so once macOS 28 is latest this will probably become impossible (macOS 26 should be able to use Xcode 27, but maybe the platform removal will change this previous year's OS support from continuing).

GTP 1y ago
> Apple still ships a bunch of virtualization drivers in macOS itself. I think OP means virtualizing on something that isn't Apple.
jayd16 1y ago
Interesting. The last I looked into it, you could only officially do this on Mac hardware (defeating the purpose). You can get an xcode building for arm Macs on PC hardware with this?
- lowbloodsugar 1y ago
  - Windows: windows and Linux vm. - Linux: windows and Linux vm. - Apple: windows, Linux, Apple VM. Seems pretty straightforward. I am being facetious. You'll have a PC for gamedev because that's your biggest platform unless you are primarily switch or PS5, in which case you'll have a devkit as well as a PC. But the cost of an Apple device is insignificant compared to the cost of developing the software for it. So it really comes down to the market size and _where they are_. The games I play are either on my PS5, or on my Mac, never both. For any specific game, they are on one or the other. Ghost of Tsushima is on the PS5. Factorio is on my Mac. If I were an indie game developer, I'd likely be developing the kind of game that has a good market on the Mac.