5 ms·

What are the quirks with local dev that make it not fun?

jayd16 1y ago
There are surprisingly a lot of permission headaches and rug pulls in the last few big OS updates that have been really annoying.
- konart 1y ago
  Any examples? I've been using mbpr since 2014 and haven't seen any changes recently except you have to hit "allow" button a few times.
  - EvgeniyZh 1y ago
    Launching unsigned app now requires to go to settings manually and allow it there instead of just allowing on launch
    - asdff 1y ago
      Right click > open no longer works?
      - EvgeniyZh 1y ago
        No, only from settings.
  - jayd16 1y ago
    They're basically things along those lines. They're more nefarious when background services quietly error out and you need to dig to find it was a newly required permission.
- coldtea 1y ago
  I use macOS, with all kinds of languages locally, plus vms, kubernetes, LLMs, etc and seen no such issues. What "permission headaches"?
  - mholm 1y ago
    There are a lot of annoying hurdles when allowing some types of application access. Needing to manually allow things in the security menu, allowing unrecognized developers, unsigned apps. Nothing insurmountable so far, but progressively more annoying for competent users to have control over their devices.
  - watermelon0 1y ago
    Launching unsigned apps is a problem, especially if an app bundle contains multiple binaries, since by default you need to approve exception for each of them separately. I know that it's possible to script that since Homebrew handles it automatically, but if you just want to use a specific app outside of Homebrew, experience is definitely worse than on Linux/Windows.
jtbaker 1y ago
docker being nerfed is pretty much the only thing I can think of.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- cbm-vic-20 1y ago
  Have you tried Apple's "container" tool? https://github.com/apple/container https://github.com/apple/container
  - jtbaker 1y ago
    I saw the announcement, and it looks like a cool tool. But I don't think it supports docker compose specs, which a lot of my projects use for running services (like postgres) locally when developing. And doesn't seem like there is any support for kubernetes - e.g. still needs to run through Colima etc.
sofixa 1y ago
Docker works very weirdly (it's a desktop application you have to install that has usage restrictions in enterprise contexts, and it's inside a VM so some things don't work), or you have to use an alternative with similar restrictions (Podman, Rancher Desktop). The OS also has weird rough edges when used from the terminal - there are read-only parts, there are restrictions on loading libraries, multiple utilities come with very old versions or BSD versions with different flags than the GNU ones you might be used to coming from Linux, the package manager is pretty terrible. There are things (e.g. installing drivers to be able to connect to ESP32 devices) that require jumping through multiple ridiculous hoops. Some things are flat out impossible. Each new OS update brings new restrictions "for your safety" that are probably good for the average consumer, but annoying for people using the device for development/related.
- anajimi 1y ago
  I suggest trying Nix on Macos, it is very nice as a package manager but also it can be used as a way to replace Docker (at least for my needs, it works very well). This days I don't even bother installing brew on my Mac, I only use Nix.
  - skinnymuch 1y ago
    Very interesting. I’m going to start using Nix it seems based off skimming how it works and can replace docker.
  - alexshagov 1y ago
    Ended up doing the same, no brew, no docker System-wide dependencies installed via home manager, and project-related installed via nix flakes which is created on project basis I can spin up a new identical environment on new macos in 15 mins
- coldtea 1y ago
  >The OS also has weird rough edges when used from the terminal - there are read-only parts, there are restrictions on loading libraries, multiple utilities come with very old versions or BSD versions with different flags than the GNU ones you might be used to coming from Linux, the package manager is pretty terrible. You use nix or brew (or something like MacPorts). And they are mighty fine. You shouldn't be concerned with the built-in utilities.
Zizizizz 1y ago
For me, who came from linux the only thing I don't like is the overview menu's lack of an (x) to close a window. The way slack stacks windows within the app so it's hard to find the right one. Pressing the red button doesn't close the app from appearing in your CMD+Tab cycle between apps, you also have to press CMD+Q. (Just a preference to how windows and linux treat windows, actually closing them. Rectangle resolved the snap to corner thing (I know MacOS has it natively too but it's not too great in comparison). Things I prefer: Raycast + it's plugins compared to the linux app search tooling, battery life, performance. Brew vs the linux package managers I don't notice much of a difference. Things that are basically the same: The dev experience (just a shell and my dotfiles has it essentially the same between OS's)
- tracker1 1y ago
  I think the hardest part for me, is getting used to using CMD vs CTRL for cut-copy-paste, then when I start to get used to it... in a terminal, it breaks me out with a different key for Ctrl+C. I got used to Ctrl+Shift for terminals in Linux (and Windows) for cut-copy-paste, etc. It may seem like a small thing, but when you have literal decades of muscle memory working against you, it's not that small.
  - platevoltage 1y ago
    I'm a lifelong Mac user, so obviously I'm used to using CMD instead of CTRL. Inside the terminal we use CTRL for things like CTRL-C to exit a CLI application. What messes me up when I'm working on a linux machine is not being able to do things like copy/paste text from the terminal with a hotkey combo because there is no CMD-C, and CTRL-C already has a job other than copying. IMO apple really messed up by putting the FN key in the bottom left corner of the keyboard instead of CTRL. Those keys get swapped on every Mac I buy.
    - tracker1 1y ago
      Ctrl+Shift+(X,C,V) tends to work for many/most terminals in Linux and Windows (including Code and the new Terminal in Windows)... I agree on the Fn key positioning... I hate it in the corner and tend to zoom in when considering laptops for anyone just in case. I've also had weird arrow keys on the right side in a laptop keyboard where I'd hit the up arrow instead of the right shift a lot in practice... really messed up test area input.

There are surprisingly a lot of permission headaches and rug pulls in the last few big OS updates that have been really annoying.

konart 1y ago
Any examples? I've been using mbpr since 2014 and haven't seen any changes recently except you have to hit "allow" button a few times.
- EvgeniyZh 1y ago
  Launching unsigned app now requires to go to settings manually and allow it there instead of just allowing on launch
  - asdff 1y ago
    Right click > open no longer works?
    - EvgeniyZh 1y ago
      No, only from settings.
- jayd16 1y ago
  They're basically things along those lines. They're more nefarious when background services quietly error out and you need to dig to find it was a newly required permission.
coldtea 1y ago
I use macOS, with all kinds of languages locally, plus vms, kubernetes, LLMs, etc and seen no such issues. What "permission headaches"?
- mholm 1y ago
  There are a lot of annoying hurdles when allowing some types of application access. Needing to manually allow things in the security menu, allowing unrecognized developers, unsigned apps. Nothing insurmountable so far, but progressively more annoying for competent users to have control over their devices.
- watermelon0 1y ago
  Launching unsigned apps is a problem, especially if an app bundle contains multiple binaries, since by default you need to approve exception for each of them separately. I know that it's possible to script that since Homebrew handles it automatically, but if you just want to use a specific app outside of Homebrew, experience is definitely worse than on Linux/Windows.

jtbaker 1y ago

docker being nerfed is pretty much the only thing I can think of.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
cbm-vic-20 1y ago
Have you tried Apple's "container" tool? https://github.com/apple/container https://github.com/apple/container
- jtbaker 1y ago
  I saw the announcement, and it looks like a cool tool. But I don't think it supports docker compose specs, which a lot of my projects use for running services (like postgres) locally when developing. And doesn't seem like there is any support for kubernetes - e.g. still needs to run through Colima etc.

sofixa 1y ago

Docker works very weirdly (it's a desktop application you have to install that has usage restrictions in enterprise contexts, and it's inside a VM so some things don't work), or you have to use an alternative with similar restrictions (Podman, Rancher Desktop). The OS also has weird rough edges when used from the terminal - there are read-only parts, there are restrictions on loading libraries, multiple utilities come with very old versions or BSD versions with different flags than the GNU ones you might be used to coming from Linux, the package manager is pretty terrible. There are things (e.g. installing drivers to be able to connect to ESP32 devices) that require jumping through multiple ridiculous hoops. Some things are flat out impossible. Each new OS update brings new restrictions "for your safety" that are probably good for the average consumer, but annoying for people using the device for development/related.

anajimi 1y ago
I suggest trying Nix on Macos, it is very nice as a package manager but also it can be used as a way to replace Docker (at least for my needs, it works very well). This days I don't even bother installing brew on my Mac, I only use Nix.
- skinnymuch 1y ago
  Very interesting. I’m going to start using Nix it seems based off skimming how it works and can replace docker.
- alexshagov 1y ago
  Ended up doing the same, no brew, no docker System-wide dependencies installed via home manager, and project-related installed via nix flakes which is created on project basis I can spin up a new identical environment on new macos in 15 mins
coldtea 1y ago
>The OS also has weird rough edges when used from the terminal - there are read-only parts, there are restrictions on loading libraries, multiple utilities come with very old versions or BSD versions with different flags than the GNU ones you might be used to coming from Linux, the package manager is pretty terrible. You use nix or brew (or something like MacPorts). And they are mighty fine. You shouldn't be concerned with the built-in utilities.

Zizizizz 1y ago

For me, who came from linux the only thing I don't like is the overview menu's lack of an (x) to close a window. The way slack stacks windows within the app so it's hard to find the right one. Pressing the red button doesn't close the app from appearing in your CMD+Tab cycle between apps, you also have to press CMD+Q. (Just a preference to how windows and linux treat windows, actually closing them. Rectangle resolved the snap to corner thing (I know MacOS has it natively too but it's not too great in comparison). Things I prefer: Raycast + it's plugins compared to the linux app search tooling, battery life, performance. Brew vs the linux package managers I don't notice much of a difference. Things that are basically the same: The dev experience (just a shell and my dotfiles has it essentially the same between OS's)

tracker1 1y ago
I think the hardest part for me, is getting used to using CMD vs CTRL for cut-copy-paste, then when I start to get used to it... in a terminal, it breaks me out with a different key for Ctrl+C. I got used to Ctrl+Shift for terminals in Linux (and Windows) for cut-copy-paste, etc. It may seem like a small thing, but when you have literal decades of muscle memory working against you, it's not that small.
- platevoltage 1y ago
  I'm a lifelong Mac user, so obviously I'm used to using CMD instead of CTRL. Inside the terminal we use CTRL for things like CTRL-C to exit a CLI application. What messes me up when I'm working on a linux machine is not being able to do things like copy/paste text from the terminal with a hotkey combo because there is no CMD-C, and CTRL-C already has a job other than copying. IMO apple really messed up by putting the FN key in the bottom left corner of the keyboard instead of CTRL. Those keys get swapped on every Mac I buy.
  - tracker1 1y ago
    Ctrl+Shift+(X,C,V) tends to work for many/most terminals in Linux and Windows (including Code and the new Terminal in Windows)... I agree on the Fn key positioning... I hate it in the corner and tend to zoom in when considering laptops for anyone just in case. I've also had weird arrow keys on the right side in a laptop keyboard where I'd hit the up arrow instead of the right shift a lot in practice... really messed up test area input.