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Apple is not in the business of selling productivity software. Even their desktops/MacOS segment is an insignificant historical afterthought by now. To a first

by kibwen 1y ago

Apple is not in the business of selling productivity software. Even their desktops/MacOS segment is an insignificant historical afterthought by now. To a first approximation, Apple is a manufacturer of locked-down handheld entertainment appliances whose primary function is to psychologically condition children into siphoning off money from their inattentive parents. There's no reason to suspect their vision for the AVP to diverge significantly from this user story.

basisword 1y ago
Every company I've worked at in the last 15-20 years has run fully on Mac. First it was the designers, then the devs, and now everyone. I used Windows for years and have some experience with various Linux distros, but if I joined a company that made me use either of those full-time I'd immediately start looking for another job.
- Lio 1y ago
  Yep I've just joined, via aquisition, a company that runs remote Windows desktops you have to access using whatever Remote Desktop is now called. I've not seen a professional desktop operating system show you adverts and click bait during worktime before and I am not impressed. I'm taking it as an alarm bell that I should get out as soon as I can. For me and what I do, macOS or Linux are my platforms of choice.
  - supportengineer 1y ago
    Fortunately you can use Remote Desktop using the Microsoft Windows app for Mac.
  - angoragoats 1y ago
    FWIW, macOS also has adverts that can’t be disabled.
- UltraSane 1y ago
  That is a really really strange thing to care so much about
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    "Is this company going to waste my time?" is not a strange question.
    - UltraSane 1y ago
      First you are getting the paid so again it is a very odd thing to care about and second how does windows and Linux waste your time?
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        > First you are getting the paid… Even billionaires get burnout. > how does windows and Linux waste your time? Windows is deep down the enshittification curve. My Linux-using coworkers seem to spend a lot of time wiping things and switching distros. I'm very happy with it for servers, but not for desktop.
      - supportengineer 1y ago
        You don't see how Microsoft Windows wastes your time? - 15 minute boot-up times - Complete lack of power management ( close your laptop screen ) - Random forced updates
  - basisword 1y ago
    I have to spend 8+ hours a day using the tool. Why put myself through constant unnecessary frustration if I don't have to?
stetrain 1y ago
Weird, that description doesn't apply at all to my experiences as a developer using Macs for the last few years. Personally I find a Mac to be a better development environment than Windows even for Microsoft tech like the dotnet stack.
- stronglikedan 1y ago
  > Personally That word right there means that we can both be correct, because I personally find MacOS to be frustrating for Dev compared to every other alternative. Great for creativity, but not so much for productivity.
  - stetrain 1y ago
    Sure. The comment I replied to wasn’t so qualified.
- fennecfoxy 1y ago
  I've used Macbooks for dev pretty much my whole career and I do think that they're some of the _best_ laptops available for dev. But the caveat to my statement is that _everything_ added to their ecosystem to business reasons is useless and counterproductive. For example I can plug my Android phone into a Windows machine (two different companies inb4 someone uses flawed logic) and it just works. If I plug my Android phone into my Macbook it doesn't work at all...but an iPhone does! ;) They only very recently got decent-ish Window management, basic snapping that Linux/Windows has had for at least a decade or longer. And even then their implementation is "pretty" but slow to respond. It's like just expand and snap the fucking window for fuck's sake. In terms of the "development environment" they enjoy having had the OS built on top of FreeBSD (which yes, they have contributed to - bet Apple management hated that). To me it's a machine that gets stuff done; they could literally strip the thing down to the bare minimum, removing all of the "magical wonderful Apple stuff with cutesy fancy sounding names" and I couldn't give a shit. "Retina" screen? Fuck offff Apple.
  - stetrain 1y ago
    I enjoy high-dpi displays for dev and other productivity tasks. That one isn't just an annoying marketing gimmick.
dbspin 1y ago
And also virtually every film editor, colourist and videographer. Oh and also every illustrator and graphic designer. And a host of other professions where having a clean UI, colour accuracy, on a reliable machine that rarely if ever crashes is essential rather than a preference. As a film maker and editor I'm enormously more productive on my dual screen (used) M1 Max Studio machine than I was on a variety of PC setups with high end GPUs. Even just the missing overhead of not having to keep graphic drives and constant Windows updates is great. Reliable renders were never a thing on Windows. The time lost doing things again because window had some strange colour issue, render crash, font issue and on and on was ludicrous. The idea of having to use Windows for daily productivity sends a shiver down my spine.
- browningstreet 1y ago
  I don't agree with the OP, but you gotta admit.. it used to feel like Apple was more dedicated to this market when they could keep interesting Pro desktop kit evolving on an acceptable pace.
  - dbspin 1y ago
    I don't know... I agree that they're no longer innovative in terms of UI and original categories of devices. But the M1 chips have been enormously innovative in terms of performance per watt. One reason essentially every 'creative' (bar 3d designers) uses Macs is that unplugged they run as fast as plugged in. There's literally no PC laptop you can build or buy with integrated graphics powerful enough to compete - while on the move and away from power. Perhaps the new AMD Strix Halo devices will change this, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
  - stetrain 1y ago
    Their Pro desktop/laptop hardware is the best it's ever been as long as it fits your use case (ie not adding a bunch of PCI-E cards or third party GPUs). Software is definitely more debatable.
gjm11 1y ago
I'm sure you felt very clever writing that zinger about children and parents, but unless the majority of Apple devices are sold to/for children -- which I would bet is extremely not true -- it's obviously wrong.
- chrisbrandow 1y ago
  In app purchases from (crappy) games is top revenue source in App Store. Anecdotally, I’d be shocked if the majority of that wasn’t from kids using their parents’ phones.
  - trvz 1y ago
    Prepare to be shocked real good then: it’s from adults who are affluent or addicted.
    - supportengineer 1y ago
      In the Pokemon Go days, about 10 years back, the top whales were spending 5- and 6-figure amounts on that game's in-app purchases.
    - anikom15 1y ago
      Does it matter what the age of the users are? Clearly they are all children regardless.
- kibwen 1y ago
  You have deftly avoided attempting to refute the actual argument here, which is that >90% of Apple's revenue comes from their walled garden, and they have no desire to pivot back towards catering to the small and dwindling niche of power users.
  - supportengineer 1y ago
    If your primary machine isn't a high-end Macbook Pro, are you even a "power user"? Any other hardware is a non-starter.
jen20 1y ago
> Even their desktops/MacOS segment is an insignificant historical afterthought by now. By what measure? As I understand it, more Macs sell now than in any other point in history.

by kibwen 1y ago

basisword 1y ago

Every company I've worked at in the last 15-20 years has run fully on Mac. First it was the designers, then the devs, and now everyone. I used Windows for years and have some experience with various Linux distros, but if I joined a company that made me use either of those full-time I'd immediately start looking for another job.

Lio 1y ago
Yep I've just joined, via aquisition, a company that runs remote Windows desktops you have to access using whatever Remote Desktop is now called. I've not seen a professional desktop operating system show you adverts and click bait during worktime before and I am not impressed. I'm taking it as an alarm bell that I should get out as soon as I can. For me and what I do, macOS or Linux are my platforms of choice.
- supportengineer 1y ago
  Fortunately you can use Remote Desktop using the Microsoft Windows app for Mac.
- angoragoats 1y ago
  FWIW, macOS also has adverts that can’t be disabled.
UltraSane 1y ago
That is a really really strange thing to care so much about
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  "Is this company going to waste my time?" is not a strange question.
  - UltraSane 1y ago
    First you are getting the paid so again it is a very odd thing to care about and second how does windows and Linux waste your time?
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      > First you are getting the paid… Even billionaires get burnout. > how does windows and Linux waste your time? Windows is deep down the enshittification curve. My Linux-using coworkers seem to spend a lot of time wiping things and switching distros. I'm very happy with it for servers, but not for desktop.
    - supportengineer 1y ago
      You don't see how Microsoft Windows wastes your time? - 15 minute boot-up times - Complete lack of power management ( close your laptop screen ) - Random forced updates
- basisword 1y ago
  I have to spend 8+ hours a day using the tool. Why put myself through constant unnecessary frustration if I don't have to?

stetrain 1y ago

Weird, that description doesn't apply at all to my experiences as a developer using Macs for the last few years. Personally I find a Mac to be a better development environment than Windows even for Microsoft tech like the dotnet stack.

stronglikedan 1y ago
> Personally That word right there means that we can both be correct, because I personally find MacOS to be frustrating for Dev compared to every other alternative. Great for creativity, but not so much for productivity.
- stetrain 1y ago
  Sure. The comment I replied to wasn’t so qualified.
fennecfoxy 1y ago
I've used Macbooks for dev pretty much my whole career and I do think that they're some of the _best_ laptops available for dev. But the caveat to my statement is that _everything_ added to their ecosystem to business reasons is useless and counterproductive. For example I can plug my Android phone into a Windows machine (two different companies inb4 someone uses flawed logic) and it just works. If I plug my Android phone into my Macbook it doesn't work at all...but an iPhone does! ;) They only very recently got decent-ish Window management, basic snapping that Linux/Windows has had for at least a decade or longer. And even then their implementation is "pretty" but slow to respond. It's like just expand and snap the fucking window for fuck's sake. In terms of the "development environment" they enjoy having had the OS built on top of FreeBSD (which yes, they have contributed to - bet Apple management hated that). To me it's a machine that gets stuff done; they could literally strip the thing down to the bare minimum, removing all of the "magical wonderful Apple stuff with cutesy fancy sounding names" and I couldn't give a shit. "Retina" screen? Fuck offff Apple.
- stetrain 1y ago
  I enjoy high-dpi displays for dev and other productivity tasks. That one isn't just an annoying marketing gimmick.

dbspin 1y ago

And also virtually every film editor, colourist and videographer. Oh and also every illustrator and graphic designer. And a host of other professions where having a clean UI, colour accuracy, on a reliable machine that rarely if ever crashes is essential rather than a preference. As a film maker and editor I'm enormously more productive on my dual screen (used) M1 Max Studio machine than I was on a variety of PC setups with high end GPUs. Even just the missing overhead of not having to keep graphic drives and constant Windows updates is great. Reliable renders were never a thing on Windows. The time lost doing things again because window had some strange colour issue, render crash, font issue and on and on was ludicrous. The idea of having to use Windows for daily productivity sends a shiver down my spine.

browningstreet 1y ago
I don't agree with the OP, but you gotta admit.. it used to feel like Apple was more dedicated to this market when they could keep interesting Pro desktop kit evolving on an acceptable pace.
- dbspin 1y ago
  I don't know... I agree that they're no longer innovative in terms of UI and original categories of devices. But the M1 chips have been enormously innovative in terms of performance per watt. One reason essentially every 'creative' (bar 3d designers) uses Macs is that unplugged they run as fast as plugged in. There's literally no PC laptop you can build or buy with integrated graphics powerful enough to compete - while on the move and away from power. Perhaps the new AMD Strix Halo devices will change this, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
- stetrain 1y ago
  Their Pro desktop/laptop hardware is the best it's ever been as long as it fits your use case (ie not adding a bunch of PCI-E cards or third party GPUs). Software is definitely more debatable.

gjm11 1y ago

I'm sure you felt very clever writing that zinger about children and parents, but unless the majority of Apple devices are sold to/for children -- which I would bet is extremely not true -- it's obviously wrong.

chrisbrandow 1y ago
In app purchases from (crappy) games is top revenue source in App Store. Anecdotally, I’d be shocked if the majority of that wasn’t from kids using their parents’ phones.
- trvz 1y ago
  Prepare to be shocked real good then: it’s from adults who are affluent or addicted.
  - supportengineer 1y ago
    In the Pokemon Go days, about 10 years back, the top whales were spending 5- and 6-figure amounts on that game's in-app purchases.
  - anikom15 1y ago
    Does it matter what the age of the users are? Clearly they are all children regardless.
kibwen 1y ago
You have deftly avoided attempting to refute the actual argument here, which is that >90% of Apple's revenue comes from their walled garden, and they have no desire to pivot back towards catering to the small and dwindling niche of power users.
- supportengineer 1y ago
  If your primary machine isn't a high-end Macbook Pro, are you even a "power user"? Any other hardware is a non-starter.

jen20 1y ago

> Even their desktops/MacOS segment is an insignificant historical afterthought by now. By what measure? As I understand it, more Macs sell now than in any other point in history.