3 ms·

I keep hearing how everyone keeps saying "Hungry evil" but can anyone explain me what exactly has Hungary done to harm mutually beneficial EU efforts? Other tha

I keep hearing how everyone keeps saying "Hungry evil" but can anyone explain me what exactly has Hungary done to harm mutually beneficial EU efforts? Other than Orban being corrupt and unpopular because the same applies to most politicians at EU level especially Ursula vs Leyen. Now on this topic here, this story is as old as time, with big-corpo and government regulators being just different elements of the same revolving door, yet somehow it's not considered corruption because you can't prove it in court. So what's the solution here? I don't want Ireland kicked out of the EU, and that isn't even legally possible to begin with, but I also don't want a member state enjoying EU benefits while sabotaging the other members States for personal gain, even if that wouldn't be the first and last time an EU country engages in self centered activities at the expense of everyone else.

pmezard 1y ago
Hungary suspected of spying for Russia, in der Spiegel (also in Le Monde but no translated link): https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/eu-wie-ungarns-agenten-in-bruessel-informanten-anzuwerben-versuchten-a-a44776c8-c8a6-4bf1-a7d1-7e92f643b748 > Other than Orban being corrupt and unpopular because the same applies to most politicians at EU level especially Ursula vs Leyen. I am so tired of these "they are all bad anyway" stances. AFAIK, Ursula van der Leyen is not actively supporting a country who invaded a EU neighbour some years ago or routinely performs assassinations on EU territory. Also, I do not think she is actively criticizing the EU whenever she has the opportunity while pocketing as much money from it as she can. Maybe we could talk about Orban stance wrt democracy and people rights. I don't especially like Ursula van der Leyen, I think she is the usual misdirected pro-market believer the kind we had too much in EU so far. But she is not that bad. I guess they are the same anyway. All that said, Ireland action is bad but not that bad.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >I am so tired of these "they are all bad anyway" stances. What evidence do you have they are not all bad? I can't think of too many major high level EU leaders that people would consider to be a net positive. >Hungary suspected of spying for Russia Are you aware that former German and Austrian politicians are on the payroll of Russian oil and gas companies and Putin even came to the wedding s of some of them? Are you aware Austrian banks still operate in Russia profiting? Yet I never hear anyone blaming Austrian every 5 minutes the same way they do Hungary. Why the double standards where all the blame in on Hungary yet other EU members fly under the radar for much more pro-Russia cooperation and profiteering? >Also, I do not think she is actively criticizing the EU whenever she has the opportunity while pocketing as much money from it as she can. Then why did she delete her messages with Pfizer? You're right, she's not profiteering, she's just helping her puppet masters profiteer. Big difference.
  - pmezard 1y ago
    > What evidence do you have they are not all bad? I can't think of too many major high level EU leaders that people would consider to be a net positive. A net positive compared to what? To have nobody at the head of the state and have anarchy? Or compared to the next one who wants the job? Let's be concrete. I live in France, which currently is not going to give anyone lessons about governance. Current president is Macron. Is he evil bad, super corrupt? I do not think so. He is a bad mix of arrogance, naivety and brilliance in some domains. In the end, his run will end with average results as best, but not for lack of trying. It does not make him evil bad. Previous one, Hollande was nice guy out of his league. Mediocre at best. But not evil or corrupt. Previous one, Sarkozy, was brilliant and corrupt. He is going to jail next month. Still nowhere as bad as Orban on the civil rights front. Regardless, all of them are better than having Le Pen (far right) as president. Who is already known to be corrupt populist and a Russian puppet. I am afraid this is another of these "perfect is the enemy of the good" conversation. Same with Van der Leyen. Fair enough she may have taken money from Pfizer and whatnot. But you are comparing that to someone who literally suggests violent action against people of his own country. I am sorry but things are not white and black. I find it funny that most people on HN despise politicians but on the other hand are very happy to keep their cosy job for ad-tech/vc-fueled/well-paid companies instead of doing their part. Try running for mayor of a small/medium city and see how well you respond for corruption after a few years of constant harassment.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >But you are comparing that to someone who literally suggests violent action against people of his own country. What's worse? Suggesting violence against someone, or actions of corruption that loose taxpayers shit tones of money, which if it wasn't stolen by politicians would have gone to things like healthcare to keep people alive? If only there was a way to quantify money lost from corruption to deaths from underfunded healthcare, it would start to sink in for you, but you care more about optics than about actual harm done. Same for Austrian and German politicians being in bed with Putin to tie Europe's energy security to Russian oil and gas but noooo, Orban is the real evil because he said hurty things. >Fair enough she may have taken money from Pfizer and whatnot. When massive corruption leading to deaths is just "and what not" to you, then I can't argue anymore with you. The problem isn't she taking Pfizer money, its she selling out the taxpayer's money every step of the way in her political career. Pfizer's money comes with strings attached, same for every other lobbyist. >but on the other hand are very happy to keep their cosy job for ad-tech/vc-fueled/well-paid companies instead of doing their part. Is that a self report? Because I don't have any of those. Citizens elect politicians, then pay them to run a city/country as their main job, they don't have time to be a politician beyond their regular jobs that put food on their table.
- dathinab 1y ago
  > "they are all bad anyway" stances I agree van der Leyen is a corrupt, lobby friendly politician with some strange ideas (in my opinion). But she isn't "evil" or someone who would commit treason or anything like that. She also isn't incompetent in the way a lot of media in German loves to paint here. Actually she even seem quite competent wrt. some of the core skills of politicians. This doesn't mean I don't think a lot of here decisions are supper misguided, but that is a clash of beliefs and ideals which is not the same as incompetence.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - dathinab 1y ago
      what glazing? > "evil" or someone who would commit treason or anything like that is a really low bar and do you really think you become President of the European Commission by being severely incompetent? If she where as severely incompetent as some media likes to picture she would at best have been complimented away to some mostly irrelevant position, not one of the highest position in the EU organs.
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        I asked you to point out her achievements and you just glazed her further on the basis that "you can't possibly fail upwards to a high level leadership position" when a lot of people in recently history have, and in her position it's not even that hard to do when business interests use their money and influence to guarantee that their preferred puppet sorry I meant candidate gets there, especially that the process for the position she's in is appointed by committee selection and not by direct election by the people. And maybe some of the media portray her as incompetent because it's their job to investigate politics and they notice more of her fuckups than you do, especially given your lack of positive examples for her.
        1y ago
fakedang 1y ago
Orban gerrymandered his way to infinite rule, begs EU for money then gives the same money to his cronies or to himself, builds palatial estates for himself and his family, and has basically positioned Hungary as a one-party country masquerading as a European democracy. Agree on Von der Leyen also masquerading as a democratically elected politician, when in reality she was just slotted into place by German politicians who wanted her so far away from the Bundestag because she was just that much incompetent.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  >Orban gerrymandered his way to infinite rule Pretty sure he's not immortal. > gives the same money to his cronies or to himself So like every politician ever? I don't think the ones in my country are any better than Orban, they just have better PR.

pmezard 1y ago

Hungary suspected of spying for Russia, in der Spiegel (also in Le Monde but no translated link): https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/eu-wie-ungarns-agenten-in-bruessel-informanten-anzuwerben-versuchten-a-a44776c8-c8a6-4bf1-a7d1-7e92f643b748 > Other than Orban being corrupt and unpopular because the same applies to most politicians at EU level especially Ursula vs Leyen. I am so tired of these "they are all bad anyway" stances. AFAIK, Ursula van der Leyen is not actively supporting a country who invaded a EU neighbour some years ago or routinely performs assassinations on EU territory. Also, I do not think she is actively criticizing the EU whenever she has the opportunity while pocketing as much money from it as she can. Maybe we could talk about Orban stance wrt democracy and people rights. I don't especially like Ursula van der Leyen, I think she is the usual misdirected pro-market believer the kind we had too much in EU so far. But she is not that bad. I guess they are the same anyway. All that said, Ireland action is bad but not that bad.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>I am so tired of these "they are all bad anyway" stances. What evidence do you have they are not all bad? I can't think of too many major high level EU leaders that people would consider to be a net positive. >Hungary suspected of spying for Russia Are you aware that former German and Austrian politicians are on the payroll of Russian oil and gas companies and Putin even came to the wedding s of some of them? Are you aware Austrian banks still operate in Russia profiting? Yet I never hear anyone blaming Austrian every 5 minutes the same way they do Hungary. Why the double standards where all the blame in on Hungary yet other EU members fly under the radar for much more pro-Russia cooperation and profiteering? >Also, I do not think she is actively criticizing the EU whenever she has the opportunity while pocketing as much money from it as she can. Then why did she delete her messages with Pfizer? You're right, she's not profiteering, she's just helping her puppet masters profiteer. Big difference.
- pmezard 1y ago
  > What evidence do you have they are not all bad? I can't think of too many major high level EU leaders that people would consider to be a net positive. A net positive compared to what? To have nobody at the head of the state and have anarchy? Or compared to the next one who wants the job? Let's be concrete. I live in France, which currently is not going to give anyone lessons about governance. Current president is Macron. Is he evil bad, super corrupt? I do not think so. He is a bad mix of arrogance, naivety and brilliance in some domains. In the end, his run will end with average results as best, but not for lack of trying. It does not make him evil bad. Previous one, Hollande was nice guy out of his league. Mediocre at best. But not evil or corrupt. Previous one, Sarkozy, was brilliant and corrupt. He is going to jail next month. Still nowhere as bad as Orban on the civil rights front. Regardless, all of them are better than having Le Pen (far right) as president. Who is already known to be corrupt populist and a Russian puppet. I am afraid this is another of these "perfect is the enemy of the good" conversation. Same with Van der Leyen. Fair enough she may have taken money from Pfizer and whatnot. But you are comparing that to someone who literally suggests violent action against people of his own country. I am sorry but things are not white and black. I find it funny that most people on HN despise politicians but on the other hand are very happy to keep their cosy job for ad-tech/vc-fueled/well-paid companies instead of doing their part. Try running for mayor of a small/medium city and see how well you respond for corruption after a few years of constant harassment.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >But you are comparing that to someone who literally suggests violent action against people of his own country. What's worse? Suggesting violence against someone, or actions of corruption that loose taxpayers shit tones of money, which if it wasn't stolen by politicians would have gone to things like healthcare to keep people alive? If only there was a way to quantify money lost from corruption to deaths from underfunded healthcare, it would start to sink in for you, but you care more about optics than about actual harm done. Same for Austrian and German politicians being in bed with Putin to tie Europe's energy security to Russian oil and gas but noooo, Orban is the real evil because he said hurty things. >Fair enough she may have taken money from Pfizer and whatnot. When massive corruption leading to deaths is just "and what not" to you, then I can't argue anymore with you. The problem isn't she taking Pfizer money, its she selling out the taxpayer's money every step of the way in her political career. Pfizer's money comes with strings attached, same for every other lobbyist. >but on the other hand are very happy to keep their cosy job for ad-tech/vc-fueled/well-paid companies instead of doing their part. Is that a self report? Because I don't have any of those. Citizens elect politicians, then pay them to run a city/country as their main job, they don't have time to be a politician beyond their regular jobs that put food on their table.
dathinab 1y ago
> "they are all bad anyway" stances I agree van der Leyen is a corrupt, lobby friendly politician with some strange ideas (in my opinion). But she isn't "evil" or someone who would commit treason or anything like that. She also isn't incompetent in the way a lot of media in German loves to paint here. Actually she even seem quite competent wrt. some of the core skills of politicians. This doesn't mean I don't think a lot of here decisions are supper misguided, but that is a clash of beliefs and ideals which is not the same as incompetence.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - dathinab 1y ago
    what glazing? > "evil" or someone who would commit treason or anything like that is a really low bar and do you really think you become President of the European Commission by being severely incompetent? If she where as severely incompetent as some media likes to picture she would at best have been complimented away to some mostly irrelevant position, not one of the highest position in the EU organs.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      I asked you to point out her achievements and you just glazed her further on the basis that "you can't possibly fail upwards to a high level leadership position" when a lot of people in recently history have, and in her position it's not even that hard to do when business interests use their money and influence to guarantee that their preferred puppet sorry I meant candidate gets there, especially that the process for the position she's in is appointed by committee selection and not by direct election by the people. And maybe some of the media portray her as incompetent because it's their job to investigate politics and they notice more of her fuckups than you do, especially given your lack of positive examples for her.
      - 1y ago

fakedang 1y ago

Orban gerrymandered his way to infinite rule, begs EU for money then gives the same money to his cronies or to himself, builds palatial estates for himself and his family, and has basically positioned Hungary as a one-party country masquerading as a European democracy. Agree on Von der Leyen also masquerading as a democratically elected politician, when in reality she was just slotted into place by German politicians who wanted her so far away from the Bundestag because she was just that much incompetent.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>Orban gerrymandered his way to infinite rule Pretty sure he's not immortal. > gives the same money to his cronies or to himself So like every politician ever? I don't think the ones in my country are any better than Orban, they just have better PR.