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> Drug use forces people to do other crimes Something like 98% of humanity partakes of caffeine which is very clearly an addictive drug with one of the higher

> Drug use forces people to do other crimes Something like 98% of humanity partakes of caffeine which is very clearly an addictive drug with one of the higher measures of addictive potential among all drugs in most evaluations. Drug use isn't what drives people to commit crime. Lack of support systems do. Drug use is often a coping mechanism associated with lack of support systems. This is very clearly articulated in the following study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/98787/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/98787/ To quote John Ehrlichman, Whitehouse counsel and assistant to President Nixon: “You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities” Disrupted communities lack support systems and further drive folks to criminality as a means of surviving. Meanwhile, many of the founding fathers and modern political leaders have writtten quite fondly and positively about smoking cannabis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_politicians_who_have_acknowledged_cannabis_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_politici... > For example the article discusses adultery Homosexuality and sodomy (i.e. sex without the intent of procreation) are clearer examples of criminalized sexual behavior between two consenting adults. I know some folks who'd like to outlaw them today in the US and they are currently outlawed elsewhere, but I believe what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is their own business.

1718627440 1y ago
> caffeine Not all drugs are created equal, withdrawal symptoms are different. > Homosexuality and sodomy They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. You can say that this is way less of importance then the right to do whatever you want, but it is not without effect to others.
- timschmidt 1y ago
  > Not all drugs are created equal, withdrawal symptoms are different. Not in my experience. I have voluntarily withdrawn from caffeine, opiates (administered by a hospital), and cannabis. All experiences were remarkably similar. When I run support groups for folks who've used drugs, I recommend folks experiment with caffeine withdrawal to gain experience with the process. It requires at least two weeks of cessation. > They do affect the future population count Seems that you're assuming homosexual folks would otherwise procreate if forced into heterosexual relationships, which is quite a stretch. I also know quite a few homosexual couples who raise scads of children. And childless heterosexual couples. This argument doesn't hold water.
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    > All experiences were remarkably similar. Cool, my decision to not use caffeine is justified then.
    - timschmidt 1y ago
      What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business :) Victimless as it were. That said, should you find yourself in a health emergency, as I did, and hooked up to a dilaudid drip for weeks, as I was, you may find experience with the symptoms of withdrawal to be quite useful for getting yourself through the worst of it, as I did. Withdrawal is part of the human experience you don't always have a choice to avoid. Fear, avoidance, and ignorance of it makes potentially involuntary encounters with drugs more dangerous. Besides fueling unnecessarily destructive policy decisions. Worth a think.
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        Sadly there are way more drugs in the world to never have used any. Drugs (now-a-days) don't even need to be physical.
- Sindisil 1y ago
  > They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. So does abstention. By your logic, then, if sodomy and homosexuality were illegal, then adults of child bearing age would be legally required to have sex. Likewise, those unable to participate in conception would be prohibited from having sex.
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    Preventing misuse does not necessarily mean everyone should do it, so I fail to accept your logic. Anyways I didn't want to discuss that, my claim was that you either think of something as victimless or you think it is a crime. Your data point seams to only fit this claim. To disprove it you would need to find something you consider victimless, but still think it should be a crime.
    - immibis 1y ago
      Why is misuse of drugs bad? And don't say "because it's misuse" - that would be circular. I agree that people who think drugs, anal sex, or whatever should be a crime, can also rationalize that someone is the victim. They're wrong, of course, but they still think it. When you said: > They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. You can say that this is way less of importance then the right to do whatever you want, but it is not without effect to others. It appeared that you were not just stating what those crazy people who think anal sex should be a crime think, but what you thought. That's why you got replies arguing against the idea that anal sex should be a crime. You could have made it clear if you were just stating the views that crazy people have.
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        > And don't say "because it's misuse" - that would be circular. Well that's the meaning of misuse, if it weren't bad it wouldn't be misuse. You can only ask whether something is misuse or how bad it is, asking whether misuse is bad is questioning a tautology. > Why is misuse of drugs bad? Actually I was replying to this: > By your logic, then, if sodomy and homosexuality were illegal, then adults of child bearing age would be legally required to have sex. So I was talking about misuse of sexuality. > I agree that people who think drugs, anal sex, or whatever should be a crime, can also rationalize that someone is the victim. Yes that what I wanted to point out. I was merely enumerating examples from the Wikipedia article. > but what you thought. I do think homosexuality is bad and unnatural. (No don't tell me it occurs in animals, any behaviour occurs in animals.) I don't think it should be a crime, so I don't think my opinion affects other people. ------ If we were to talk about my opinion about drugs in general, I think as to them being bad, they are kind of at the same level as money. You shouldn't become attached to them. They are more dangerous the more likely you become attached to them. For any specific drug, I find the smell of cannabis to smell dangerous and poisonous in a weird and unexplainable way. I would like it, if this would go away, so I am in favor of banning it again. I also heard of studies indicating a rise in schizophrenia especially among young people (<30) and I don't wish that to anybody, just because someone tries to make money. I also don't think it's smart to do that, if you already have a lack of young people. But I lack the knowledge to check this for soundness. I wouldn't mind smoking to go away from public spaces, I hate when I'm forced to inhale this. But I can't judge if it is justified. I think alcohol is grand-fathered in. I also think there are very different kind of alcoholic beverages and also very different kind of usages. There are cultures that regularly drink liquor before eating heavy food, because it has a positive impact on the digestive system, but this is only about a few milliliters, so it is more like medicine. There is also a bit of alcohol in every apple. I think alcoholic beverages are too fundamentally incorporated in our culture, so I would find it sad to see it go away. I wouldn't mind having additional restrictions on harder stuff. I don't think coffee causes any larger issues. I also think we don't need to discuss restricting access to sugar. Medical appliance of drugs is very restricted and constantly reevaluated. I wish that large amounts of money would be more regulated, but I don't think we should touch the concept of private ownership. Also fashion or cars are the drugs of many, and now there is a large supply of non-physical drugs, but I don't know any non-restrictive policy that I want to support there. I don't have experienced any other/harder drug and I prefer it to stay that way.
- IT4MD 1y ago
  You state this like there aren't numerous other ways to fund these programs already. We can start with actually taxing people with multiple piles of Scrooge McDuck money, as opposed to the current approach of cutting social programs that benefit millions of citizens to provide even MORE tax breaks for these "people". Are you even serious with this?
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    What programs? What are you even talking about? Can you quote the stuff you are responding to?
    - IT4MD 1y ago
      Your statement: > Homosexuality and sodomy They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. You can say that this is way less of importance then the right to do whatever you want, but it is not without effect to others. =============================================================================== I assumed you were concerned with all social programs and not just your personal pension, hence the statement. Fixing pensions, while all other social safety net programs get gutted is not the way. Basic breeding by heterosexuals isn't the panacea you seem to believe it is, imo. The real issue with US population growth is the insane world we live in. It's not "the gays failing to procreate". That's a laughable statement. WTF would want to bring children into the world when literal criminals, rapists and alcoholics are running things, racism is on the rise and cheered, laws are optional for specific groups of people while abused for everyone else, SCOTUS is a complete parody of a court, Congress is run by wholly unserious people, prices of everything are rocketing up not because of genuine supply chain issues, or similar, but because of plain, old greed and much, much, much more. Let's not forget that AI is being developed at a record pace to replace jobs, while shafting the working class, instead of being used to uplift everyone. "The gays" were never the problem and never will be for population growth.
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        Yes, I was only talking about pensions, I don't think homosexuality has an effect on any other social security system. Trying to fix pensions by forbidding homosexuality is laughable yes. There aren't even enough homosexuals for that to matter. However a standard way to evaluate social norms is the categorical imperative. If everybody was homosexual we would have an issue there. But the only thing I wanted to say is that it does affect people, I didn't want to propose or defend any policy change. Also I wasn't talking about money. This only gets you a portion of the future economy, the amount of young people decides how much economy there will be. > WTF would want to bring children into the world when literal criminals, rapists and alcoholics are running things, racism is on the rise and cheered, laws are optional for specific groups of people while abused for everyone else, SCOTUS is a complete parody of a court, Congress is run by wholly unserious people, prices of everything are rocketing up not because of genuine supply chain issues, or similar, but because of plain, old greed and much, much, much more. I don't live in the USA, so I don't think I should have opinions about your internal issues, but I do think you have a problem with authoritarianism there. But whose country hasn't so who am I to judge. However I do not understand this sentiment. How does it matter if the world is a shit show? When wasn't it that in the large scale of things? That seams to be the exception not the rule. It also completely fails to account, that people tend to have more children in darker times not less. Also how do you improve that world if not by raising children. You won't have any more lasting impact on the way of life of someone than on your children. "Science advances on funeral at a time." I think this applies to everything.

1718627440 1y ago

> caffeine Not all drugs are created equal, withdrawal symptoms are different. > Homosexuality and sodomy They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. You can say that this is way less of importance then the right to do whatever you want, but it is not without effect to others.

timschmidt 1y ago
> Not all drugs are created equal, withdrawal symptoms are different. Not in my experience. I have voluntarily withdrawn from caffeine, opiates (administered by a hospital), and cannabis. All experiences were remarkably similar. When I run support groups for folks who've used drugs, I recommend folks experiment with caffeine withdrawal to gain experience with the process. It requires at least two weeks of cessation. > They do affect the future population count Seems that you're assuming homosexual folks would otherwise procreate if forced into heterosexual relationships, which is quite a stretch. I also know quite a few homosexual couples who raise scads of children. And childless heterosexual couples. This argument doesn't hold water.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  > All experiences were remarkably similar. Cool, my decision to not use caffeine is justified then.
  - timschmidt 1y ago
    What you do in the privacy of your own home is your business :) Victimless as it were. That said, should you find yourself in a health emergency, as I did, and hooked up to a dilaudid drip for weeks, as I was, you may find experience with the symptoms of withdrawal to be quite useful for getting yourself through the worst of it, as I did. Withdrawal is part of the human experience you don't always have a choice to avoid. Fear, avoidance, and ignorance of it makes potentially involuntary encounters with drugs more dangerous. Besides fueling unnecessarily destructive policy decisions. Worth a think.
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      Sadly there are way more drugs in the world to never have used any. Drugs (now-a-days) don't even need to be physical.
Sindisil 1y ago
> They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. So does abstention. By your logic, then, if sodomy and homosexuality were illegal, then adults of child bearing age would be legally required to have sex. Likewise, those unable to participate in conception would be prohibited from having sex.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  Preventing misuse does not necessarily mean everyone should do it, so I fail to accept your logic. Anyways I didn't want to discuss that, my claim was that you either think of something as victimless or you think it is a crime. Your data point seams to only fit this claim. To disprove it you would need to find something you consider victimless, but still think it should be a crime.
  - immibis 1y ago
    Why is misuse of drugs bad? And don't say "because it's misuse" - that would be circular. I agree that people who think drugs, anal sex, or whatever should be a crime, can also rationalize that someone is the victim. They're wrong, of course, but they still think it. When you said: > They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. You can say that this is way less of importance then the right to do whatever you want, but it is not without effect to others. It appeared that you were not just stating what those crazy people who think anal sex should be a crime think, but what you thought. That's why you got replies arguing against the idea that anal sex should be a crime. You could have made it clear if you were just stating the views that crazy people have.
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      > And don't say "because it's misuse" - that would be circular. Well that's the meaning of misuse, if it weren't bad it wouldn't be misuse. You can only ask whether something is misuse or how bad it is, asking whether misuse is bad is questioning a tautology. > Why is misuse of drugs bad? Actually I was replying to this: > By your logic, then, if sodomy and homosexuality were illegal, then adults of child bearing age would be legally required to have sex. So I was talking about misuse of sexuality. > I agree that people who think drugs, anal sex, or whatever should be a crime, can also rationalize that someone is the victim. Yes that what I wanted to point out. I was merely enumerating examples from the Wikipedia article. > but what you thought. I do think homosexuality is bad and unnatural. (No don't tell me it occurs in animals, any behaviour occurs in animals.) I don't think it should be a crime, so I don't think my opinion affects other people. ------ If we were to talk about my opinion about drugs in general, I think as to them being bad, they are kind of at the same level as money. You shouldn't become attached to them. They are more dangerous the more likely you become attached to them. For any specific drug, I find the smell of cannabis to smell dangerous and poisonous in a weird and unexplainable way. I would like it, if this would go away, so I am in favor of banning it again. I also heard of studies indicating a rise in schizophrenia especially among young people (<30) and I don't wish that to anybody, just because someone tries to make money. I also don't think it's smart to do that, if you already have a lack of young people. But I lack the knowledge to check this for soundness. I wouldn't mind smoking to go away from public spaces, I hate when I'm forced to inhale this. But I can't judge if it is justified. I think alcohol is grand-fathered in. I also think there are very different kind of alcoholic beverages and also very different kind of usages. There are cultures that regularly drink liquor before eating heavy food, because it has a positive impact on the digestive system, but this is only about a few milliliters, so it is more like medicine. There is also a bit of alcohol in every apple. I think alcoholic beverages are too fundamentally incorporated in our culture, so I would find it sad to see it go away. I wouldn't mind having additional restrictions on harder stuff. I don't think coffee causes any larger issues. I also think we don't need to discuss restricting access to sugar. Medical appliance of drugs is very restricted and constantly reevaluated. I wish that large amounts of money would be more regulated, but I don't think we should touch the concept of private ownership. Also fashion or cars are the drugs of many, and now there is a large supply of non-physical drugs, but I don't know any non-restrictive policy that I want to support there. I don't have experienced any other/harder drug and I prefer it to stay that way.
IT4MD 1y ago
You state this like there aren't numerous other ways to fund these programs already. We can start with actually taxing people with multiple piles of Scrooge McDuck money, as opposed to the current approach of cutting social programs that benefit millions of citizens to provide even MORE tax breaks for these "people". Are you even serious with this?
- 1718627440 1y ago
  What programs? What are you even talking about? Can you quote the stuff you are responding to?
  - IT4MD 1y ago
    Your statement: > Homosexuality and sodomy They do affect the future population count and this will affect the pension of everyone. They also will result in persons not being born. You can say that this is way less of importance then the right to do whatever you want, but it is not without effect to others. =============================================================================== I assumed you were concerned with all social programs and not just your personal pension, hence the statement. Fixing pensions, while all other social safety net programs get gutted is not the way. Basic breeding by heterosexuals isn't the panacea you seem to believe it is, imo. The real issue with US population growth is the insane world we live in. It's not "the gays failing to procreate". That's a laughable statement. WTF would want to bring children into the world when literal criminals, rapists and alcoholics are running things, racism is on the rise and cheered, laws are optional for specific groups of people while abused for everyone else, SCOTUS is a complete parody of a court, Congress is run by wholly unserious people, prices of everything are rocketing up not because of genuine supply chain issues, or similar, but because of plain, old greed and much, much, much more. Let's not forget that AI is being developed at a record pace to replace jobs, while shafting the working class, instead of being used to uplift everyone. "The gays" were never the problem and never will be for population growth.
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      Yes, I was only talking about pensions, I don't think homosexuality has an effect on any other social security system. Trying to fix pensions by forbidding homosexuality is laughable yes. There aren't even enough homosexuals for that to matter. However a standard way to evaluate social norms is the categorical imperative. If everybody was homosexual we would have an issue there. But the only thing I wanted to say is that it does affect people, I didn't want to propose or defend any policy change. Also I wasn't talking about money. This only gets you a portion of the future economy, the amount of young people decides how much economy there will be. > WTF would want to bring children into the world when literal criminals, rapists and alcoholics are running things, racism is on the rise and cheered, laws are optional for specific groups of people while abused for everyone else, SCOTUS is a complete parody of a court, Congress is run by wholly unserious people, prices of everything are rocketing up not because of genuine supply chain issues, or similar, but because of plain, old greed and much, much, much more. I don't live in the USA, so I don't think I should have opinions about your internal issues, but I do think you have a problem with authoritarianism there. But whose country hasn't so who am I to judge. However I do not understand this sentiment. How does it matter if the world is a shit show? When wasn't it that in the large scale of things? That seams to be the exception not the rule. It also completely fails to account, that people tend to have more children in darker times not less. Also how do you improve that world if not by raising children. You won't have any more lasting impact on the way of life of someone than on your children. "Science advances on funeral at a time." I think this applies to everything.