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> EU does not foster any form of framework for growing any industry You are right. Pharma, automotive, financial in EU all come from the US. Companies like No

by thefz 1y ago

> EU does not foster any form of framework for growing any industry You are right. Pharma, automotive, financial in EU all come from the US. Companies like Nokia, Siemens, Bosch, BMW... all american names.

alephnerd 1y ago
All those industries were fostered by individual countries with little-to-no transnational support from the EU. On top of that, traditional European industries like Automotive have not kept up with challengers, the financial industry across Europe itself is morose in comparison to similar markets in the US or China, and European Pharma itself is overwhelmingly clustered in Switzerland which is not an EU member. Nokia itself was at the brink of collapse in the early 2010s, and Siemens and Bosch have faced increasing stress at the bottom market from Chinese players and at the upper market by American players, plus states like the US and India required significant firewalls between those companies operations in their countries and Europe. Long story short, while individual European states may have been able to build innovative companies, that muscle has largely atrophied over the past 20 years.
- mrtksn 1y ago
  Why would politicians do any of that? Did United States House of Representatives invent anything? All these EU companies are all private enterprises and they are %100 from a country in EU because there's no such thing as EU as a country, EU doesn't have companies(beyond entities created to fulfill certain functions). This too may change soon because they are looking into introducing a 28th regime which would be like virtual EU member. I think there's huge confusion on what is EU. BTW, EU has roots in "European Coal and Steel Community" and role in forming the Airbus but even in these ase it was just a facilitator. All these expectation that are based on imaginary things(don't take it personally please, I see these things all the time) shows that EU desperately needs to become a country by its own right. Its so confusing to understand what EU can and can't do, what organization is under EU control and how much.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > Why would politicians do any of that? Did United States House of Representatives invent anything? Most industries in the US developed due to state and federal government subsidizes and industrial strategy. You can see this with the development of semiconductor clusters in Oregon, Arizona, and New York in the 1990s-2010s because of state level industrial policy, the development of the telecom hub in Dallas TX in the 90s becuase of Texas's state level industrial policy to leverage the telco boom, and historically Michigan and now South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and TN's industrial policy for automotive manufacturing. Furthermore, this ignores the impact that the IRA and IIJA subsidizes and investment promotion had in bringing European manufacturing industries to the US at the expense of their European operations - so much so that both France and Germany lobbied at all levels of the US during the Biden admin to try and kneecap the policy. > All these EU companies are all private enterprises and they are %100 from a country Absolutely, as are companies in the US yet our states have been open to leveraging industrial policy where possible in order to attract and retain investments. -------------- I am under no illusion that the EU is a country. Heck, if you re-read my initial comment that is my point. I know that it is Germany, France, Netherlands, etc who are setting policies, but the EU at a macro-level can help solve the coordination problem that exists amongst individual EU member states to develop industrious policies. That said the current status quo needs to end - either member states need to admit the EU as a central body is powerless and return to the pre-2000s vision of the European Union, or admit that a unified Europe is ideal and centralize. The current status quo is the worst of both worlds, because the delimitation of power is wonky, and leads to nation state-EU clashes.
    - mk89 1y ago
      > either member states need to admit the EU as a central body is powerless and return to the pre-2000s vision of the European Union, Which is what's happening. This is purely self inflicted BS that we accumulated for roughly 30 years now by making it increasingly harder to say no to things we don't all agree with. Even with all the opt-outs possible, countries still have to follow strict rules to avoid huge fines as a punishment, when they all they ever wanted was free trading and movement between countries. That was pretty much it. I agree you need a coordinator for certain subjects, but that's far away from what we have today.
Xelbair 1y ago
Pharma is miles behind US, Financial central was mostly London due to favorable local laws. Nokia fills very small niche now, basically services backbone Bosch and Siemens predate EU BWM also, but i wouldn't put it at forefront of innovation with how automotive industry is going. did you notice that not even a single company you've mentioned is something new, and all of them basically come from "western" side of EU or are already established industries sometimes predating WW1?
- thefz 1y ago
  You: > EU does not foster any form of framework for growing any industry Also you: > did you notice that not even a single company you've mentioned is something new K, but that was not your point since they did indeed "grow as an industry". Aren't you saying that auotomotive hasn't grown as an industry in the EU, I hope. Also, > Pharma is miles behind US, Source? > Financial central was mostly London due to favorable local laws. You mean like Paribas, MPS, Allianz... none of which are in the UK?
- kakacik 1y ago
  You are wrong in few ways, ie pharma - check where your ozempic comes from, that mostly US money has become a significant factor in Denmark's economy. I get it, its easy to throw various statements around to feel oneself' good, but can you please back them up with some hard facts to have a healthy discussion? This site strives for a better behavior.
  - WinstonSmith84 1y ago
    Some pharma companies in the EU come up sometimes with good ideas (famously BioNTech), but it's the US and its money, building on that or just simply coming on top in most cases and ripping off the benefits. But let's not forget, that like for BMW or Bosch or others, the EU pharma companies that are somewhat competitive with the US companies are companies which exist for decades ...
    - mrtksn 1y ago

by thefz 1y ago

alephnerd 1y ago

All those industries were fostered by individual countries with little-to-no transnational support from the EU. On top of that, traditional European industries like Automotive have not kept up with challengers, the financial industry across Europe itself is morose in comparison to similar markets in the US or China, and European Pharma itself is overwhelmingly clustered in Switzerland which is not an EU member. Nokia itself was at the brink of collapse in the early 2010s, and Siemens and Bosch have faced increasing stress at the bottom market from Chinese players and at the upper market by American players, plus states like the US and India required significant firewalls between those companies operations in their countries and Europe. Long story short, while individual European states may have been able to build innovative companies, that muscle has largely atrophied over the past 20 years.

mrtksn 1y ago
Why would politicians do any of that? Did United States House of Representatives invent anything? All these EU companies are all private enterprises and they are %100 from a country in EU because there's no such thing as EU as a country, EU doesn't have companies(beyond entities created to fulfill certain functions). This too may change soon because they are looking into introducing a 28th regime which would be like virtual EU member. I think there's huge confusion on what is EU. BTW, EU has roots in "European Coal and Steel Community" and role in forming the Airbus but even in these ase it was just a facilitator. All these expectation that are based on imaginary things(don't take it personally please, I see these things all the time) shows that EU desperately needs to become a country by its own right. Its so confusing to understand what EU can and can't do, what organization is under EU control and how much.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > Why would politicians do any of that? Did United States House of Representatives invent anything? Most industries in the US developed due to state and federal government subsidizes and industrial strategy. You can see this with the development of semiconductor clusters in Oregon, Arizona, and New York in the 1990s-2010s because of state level industrial policy, the development of the telecom hub in Dallas TX in the 90s becuase of Texas's state level industrial policy to leverage the telco boom, and historically Michigan and now South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and TN's industrial policy for automotive manufacturing. Furthermore, this ignores the impact that the IRA and IIJA subsidizes and investment promotion had in bringing European manufacturing industries to the US at the expense of their European operations - so much so that both France and Germany lobbied at all levels of the US during the Biden admin to try and kneecap the policy. > All these EU companies are all private enterprises and they are %100 from a country Absolutely, as are companies in the US yet our states have been open to leveraging industrial policy where possible in order to attract and retain investments. -------------- I am under no illusion that the EU is a country. Heck, if you re-read my initial comment that is my point. I know that it is Germany, France, Netherlands, etc who are setting policies, but the EU at a macro-level can help solve the coordination problem that exists amongst individual EU member states to develop industrious policies. That said the current status quo needs to end - either member states need to admit the EU as a central body is powerless and return to the pre-2000s vision of the European Union, or admit that a unified Europe is ideal and centralize. The current status quo is the worst of both worlds, because the delimitation of power is wonky, and leads to nation state-EU clashes.
  - mk89 1y ago
    > either member states need to admit the EU as a central body is powerless and return to the pre-2000s vision of the European Union, Which is what's happening. This is purely self inflicted BS that we accumulated for roughly 30 years now by making it increasingly harder to say no to things we don't all agree with. Even with all the opt-outs possible, countries still have to follow strict rules to avoid huge fines as a punishment, when they all they ever wanted was free trading and movement between countries. That was pretty much it. I agree you need a coordinator for certain subjects, but that's far away from what we have today.

Xelbair 1y ago

Pharma is miles behind US, Financial central was mostly London due to favorable local laws. Nokia fills very small niche now, basically services backbone Bosch and Siemens predate EU BWM also, but i wouldn't put it at forefront of innovation with how automotive industry is going. did you notice that not even a single company you've mentioned is something new, and all of them basically come from "western" side of EU or are already established industries sometimes predating WW1?

thefz 1y ago
You: > EU does not foster any form of framework for growing any industry Also you: > did you notice that not even a single company you've mentioned is something new K, but that was not your point since they did indeed "grow as an industry". Aren't you saying that auotomotive hasn't grown as an industry in the EU, I hope. Also, > Pharma is miles behind US, Source? > Financial central was mostly London due to favorable local laws. You mean like Paribas, MPS, Allianz... none of which are in the UK?
kakacik 1y ago
You are wrong in few ways, ie pharma - check where your ozempic comes from, that mostly US money has become a significant factor in Denmark's economy. I get it, its easy to throw various statements around to feel oneself' good, but can you please back them up with some hard facts to have a healthy discussion? This site strives for a better behavior.
- WinstonSmith84 1y ago
  Some pharma companies in the EU come up sometimes with good ideas (famously BioNTech), but it's the US and its money, building on that or just simply coming on top in most cases and ripping off the benefits. But let's not forget, that like for BMW or Bosch or others, the EU pharma companies that are somewhat competitive with the US companies are companies which exist for decades ...
  - mrtksn 1y ago