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The only thing you would have to do to make this happen is to change electricity pricing from a fixed rate to a dynamic rate based on actual market conditions,

The only thing you would have to do to make this happen is to change electricity pricing from a fixed rate to a dynamic rate based on actual market conditions, along with a standardized way of accessing current pricing. This would drive consumers to shift their behaviors to take advantage of cheap prices, and smart appliances could access the price feed to make decisions like the ones you mention. Another simple one is washing machines, dryers and dishwasher offering to delay their start time to coincide with the cheapest energy price within X hours. The issue is that most consumers don't like unpredictable prices. You can make a crude approximation by having 2-3 fixed rates for different times of day, but that leaves a lot of potential on the table

k33l0r 1y ago
Electricity contracts with 1-hour pricing are already pretty popular at least in Finland, even for consumers. I myself have one. Plus large parts of Europe are currently transitioning to more granular 15-minute pricing: https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/trading/transition-to-15-minute-market-time-unit-mtu/ https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/trading/transition-to-15-mi... You can still get fixed tariff electricity contracts but you'll end up paying a bit extra in return for greater predictability…
littlestymaar 1y ago
Even if such a system was set up, it would take years before the appliances where all updated to take advantage of it. And in the meantime it would be very unpopular for people who can't just afford to renew their otherwise fully functional appliances.
- wongarsu 1y ago
  For your old appliances you still pay the same on average. A fixed price contract isn't cheaper, it just smooths prices into a long-term average. And many of the changes can be done manually. On your old dishwasher or washing machine you decide when they start, and most of them even already have buttons to start with a fixed-time delay. Instead of starting them at the end of day you can just start them when the wind is strong or the sun is shining, or watch the price feed. You even get to feel smart for saving money I agree on the popularity, but you'd absolutely see an effect even without anyone buying new appliances
- cameronh90 1y ago
  Years isn't that long. The aim is net zero by 2050, lifespan of a fridge-freezer is about 10 years. Even assuming designing a system and putting it in place took 5 years, that's still enough time to have most appliances on it by 2040. Given the current energy prices, it probably even makes sense to replace appliances sooner than their normal lifetime. My fridge-freezer is only 5 years old, but if it broke today and cost more than ~£150 to repair, I'd end up saving money by replacing it.
  - littlestymaar 1y ago
    Each year is a significant fraction of a government mandate though.
_kidlike 1y ago
they are installing now smart meters with sim cards in Greece, and of course everyone started complaining, shaming the gov, claiming corruption, etc... General population doesn't understand that fixed pricing includes an extra cost which is the risk that the electricity provider has to account for. That risk has a calculable price, which is passed down to the consumers. But because it's baked in the flat rate, nobody complains. Smart/dynamic pricing actually benefits the consumer.
- bombcar 1y ago
  It does, but people are really bad at understanding it. It's like how there's a substantial portion of the population that counts the best commute time ever as their commute time, and are perpetually late. "How can it take 30 minutes to get to work, one time it was only 15!" - ignoring the reality of traffic, subway delays, etc.
- lmm 1y ago
  > Smart/dynamic pricing actually benefits the consumer. No it doesn't. The customer has low risk appetite and would rather pay a premium for predictability.
  - Alex-Programs 1y ago
    Clearly the consumer should automatically trade futures as a hedge!
bombcar 1y ago
> The issue is that most consumers don't like unpredictable prices. The key is to not take this away; make it so that those who want predictability can get it (but they end pay more for the privilege) but those who want to try to "game the system" can (and incidentally help with the overproduction problem). Done well, things like Powerwalls, thermal mass storage, etc could absorb quite a bit of load during peak production times, reducing load at inopportune times.

k33l0r 1y ago

Electricity contracts with 1-hour pricing are already pretty popular at least in Finland, even for consumers. I myself have one. Plus large parts of Europe are currently transitioning to more granular 15-minute pricing: https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/trading/transition-to-15-minute-market-time-unit-mtu/ https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/trading/transition-to-15-mi... You can still get fixed tariff electricity contracts but you'll end up paying a bit extra in return for greater predictability…

littlestymaar 1y ago

Even if such a system was set up, it would take years before the appliances where all updated to take advantage of it. And in the meantime it would be very unpopular for people who can't just afford to renew their otherwise fully functional appliances.

wongarsu 1y ago
For your old appliances you still pay the same on average. A fixed price contract isn't cheaper, it just smooths prices into a long-term average. And many of the changes can be done manually. On your old dishwasher or washing machine you decide when they start, and most of them even already have buttons to start with a fixed-time delay. Instead of starting them at the end of day you can just start them when the wind is strong or the sun is shining, or watch the price feed. You even get to feel smart for saving money I agree on the popularity, but you'd absolutely see an effect even without anyone buying new appliances
cameronh90 1y ago
Years isn't that long. The aim is net zero by 2050, lifespan of a fridge-freezer is about 10 years. Even assuming designing a system and putting it in place took 5 years, that's still enough time to have most appliances on it by 2040. Given the current energy prices, it probably even makes sense to replace appliances sooner than their normal lifetime. My fridge-freezer is only 5 years old, but if it broke today and cost more than ~£150 to repair, I'd end up saving money by replacing it.
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  Each year is a significant fraction of a government mandate though.

_kidlike 1y ago

they are installing now smart meters with sim cards in Greece, and of course everyone started complaining, shaming the gov, claiming corruption, etc... General population doesn't understand that fixed pricing includes an extra cost which is the risk that the electricity provider has to account for. That risk has a calculable price, which is passed down to the consumers. But because it's baked in the flat rate, nobody complains. Smart/dynamic pricing actually benefits the consumer.

bombcar 1y ago
It does, but people are really bad at understanding it. It's like how there's a substantial portion of the population that counts the best commute time ever as their commute time, and are perpetually late. "How can it take 30 minutes to get to work, one time it was only 15!" - ignoring the reality of traffic, subway delays, etc.
lmm 1y ago
> Smart/dynamic pricing actually benefits the consumer. No it doesn't. The customer has low risk appetite and would rather pay a premium for predictability.
- Alex-Programs 1y ago
  Clearly the consumer should automatically trade futures as a hedge!

bombcar 1y ago

> The issue is that most consumers don't like unpredictable prices. The key is to not take this away; make it so that those who want predictability can get it (but they end pay more for the privilege) but those who want to try to "game the system" can (and incidentally help with the overproduction problem). Done well, things like Powerwalls, thermal mass storage, etc could absorb quite a bit of load during peak production times, reducing load at inopportune times.