7 ms·

Which crimes do you think are victimless exactly?

by novia 1y ago

immibis 1y ago
Think of smoking marijuana on your balcony at home. Society does not get better if we punish that more - or at all. That just shouldn't be a crime to begin with. You also shouldn't do it, because smoking is bad for you, but that's not a reason to make it a crime. Though it may be that a better society makes fewer people want to smoke.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  You do pay people growing plants that don't provide a good to society and you do alter your state of mind which affects others and you do destroy your health a cost which also payed by others.
  - xkcd-sucks 1y ago
    Basically these are the effects of a job in software management, minus the plants
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      Care to elaborate that?
      - immibis 1y ago
        Watching Netflix. You pay people streaming movies that don't provide a good to society and you do alter your state of mind which affects others and you do destroy your health a cost which also payed by others. The argument you used earlier could be applied to literally anything, so if it's valid, literally everything should be a crime. I don't think the argument is valid. You can't counter-argue that streaming movies is good for society, but growing plants isn't. I think it's the other way around, actually.
        1718627440 1y ago
        They do produce movies. I think comparing them to producing addictives to keep a mafia and money washing system operating is a bit disingenuous. I also think movies in general do not remove your ability to form clean thoughts, having goals in life and invoke hallucinations and make you paranoid. Maybe I shouldn't have used a bunch of euphemisms that sound ridiculous when taken literally.
        immibis 1y ago
        Some drugs are addictive. Some are not. Some are pretty benign. Do you drink coffee? Alcohol? Actually, alcohol is much worse for you than some illegal drugs are. So is Tylenol - that's actually one of the easiest drugs to fatally overdose on, and you can buy it over the counter. Perhaps each substance should be judged on its own merits and not whether it's legal or illegal.
        1718627440 1y ago
        No. Yes ~5 times a year, cumulative maybe half a liter. Yeah heard that. Honestly I am neither a medicine, nor a chemist, nor a psychologist, so I don't feel qualified to discuss anything here.
timschmidt 1y ago
Wikipedia has some good examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime Definitions differ person to person, but many things we consider benign today like sexual activities between consenting adults, racial integration, even free travel have at times and in places been considered crimes. Today, homelessness is often criminalized. As is drug use even among otherwise productive law abiding citizens. Assisted suicide is often criminalized, even for terminally ill and suffering consenting adults.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  I think it really depends on what you consider to be a victimless crime. I think nobody considers the same thing both to be a crime and a victimless crime. For example the article discusses adultery. There is obviously a third person harmed there, it only matters whether you care about that enough. Same with drug use. Drug use forces people to do other crimes and also invites people to take drugs that wouldn't otherwise, whether you consider these to be victims is on you of course.
  - timschmidt 1y ago
    > Drug use forces people to do other crimes Something like 98% of humanity partakes of caffeine which is very clearly an addictive drug with one of the higher measures of addictive potential among all drugs in most evaluations. Drug use isn't what drives people to commit crime. Lack of support systems do. Drug use is often a coping mechanism associated with lack of support systems. This is very clearly articulated in the following study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/98787/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/98787/ To quote John Ehrlichman, Whitehouse counsel and assistant to President Nixon: “You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities” Disrupted communities lack support systems and further drive folks to criminality as a means of surviving. Meanwhile, many of the founding fathers and modern political leaders have writtten quite fondly and positively about smoking cannabis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_politicians_who_have_acknowledged_cannabis_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_politici... > For example the article discusses adultery Homosexuality and sodomy (i.e. sex without the intent of procreation) are clearer examples of criminalized sexual behavior between two consenting adults. I know some folks who'd like to outlaw them today in the US and they are currently outlawed elsewhere, but I believe what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is their own business.

Which crimes do you think are victimless exactly?

by novia 1y ago

Which crimes do you think are victimless exactly?

Think of smoking marijuana on your balcony at home. Society does not get better if we punish that more - or at all. That just shouldn't be a crime to begin with. You also shouldn't do it, because smoking is bad for you, but that's not a reason to make it a crime. Though it may be that a better society makes fewer people want to smoke.

1718627440 1y ago
You do pay people growing plants that don't provide a good to society and you do alter your state of mind which affects others and you do destroy your health a cost which also payed by others.
- xkcd-sucks 1y ago
  Basically these are the effects of a job in software management, minus the plants
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    Care to elaborate that?
    - immibis 1y ago
      Watching Netflix. You pay people streaming movies that don't provide a good to society and you do alter your state of mind which affects others and you do destroy your health a cost which also payed by others. The argument you used earlier could be applied to literally anything, so if it's valid, literally everything should be a crime. I don't think the argument is valid. You can't counter-argue that streaming movies is good for society, but growing plants isn't. I think it's the other way around, actually.
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        They do produce movies. I think comparing them to producing addictives to keep a mafia and money washing system operating is a bit disingenuous. I also think movies in general do not remove your ability to form clean thoughts, having goals in life and invoke hallucinations and make you paranoid. Maybe I shouldn't have used a bunch of euphemisms that sound ridiculous when taken literally.
        immibis 1y ago
        Some drugs are addictive. Some are not. Some are pretty benign. Do you drink coffee? Alcohol? Actually, alcohol is much worse for you than some illegal drugs are. So is Tylenol - that's actually one of the easiest drugs to fatally overdose on, and you can buy it over the counter. Perhaps each substance should be judged on its own merits and not whether it's legal or illegal.
        1718627440 1y ago
        No. Yes ~5 times a year, cumulative maybe half a liter. Yeah heard that. Honestly I am neither a medicine, nor a chemist, nor a psychologist, so I don't feel qualified to discuss anything here.

timschmidt 1y ago

Wikipedia has some good examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime Definitions differ person to person, but many things we consider benign today like sexual activities between consenting adults, racial integration, even free travel have at times and in places been considered crimes. Today, homelessness is often criminalized. As is drug use even among otherwise productive law abiding citizens. Assisted suicide is often criminalized, even for terminally ill and suffering consenting adults.

1718627440 1y ago
I think it really depends on what you consider to be a victimless crime. I think nobody considers the same thing both to be a crime and a victimless crime. For example the article discusses adultery. There is obviously a third person harmed there, it only matters whether you care about that enough. Same with drug use. Drug use forces people to do other crimes and also invites people to take drugs that wouldn't otherwise, whether you consider these to be victims is on you of course.
- timschmidt 1y ago
  > Drug use forces people to do other crimes Something like 98% of humanity partakes of caffeine which is very clearly an addictive drug with one of the higher measures of addictive potential among all drugs in most evaluations. Drug use isn't what drives people to commit crime. Lack of support systems do. Drug use is often a coping mechanism associated with lack of support systems. This is very clearly articulated in the following study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/98787/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/98787/ To quote John Ehrlichman, Whitehouse counsel and assistant to President Nixon: “You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities” Disrupted communities lack support systems and further drive folks to criminality as a means of surviving. Meanwhile, many of the founding fathers and modern political leaders have writtten quite fondly and positively about smoking cannabis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_politicians_who_have_acknowledged_cannabis_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_politici... > For example the article discusses adultery Homosexuality and sodomy (i.e. sex without the intent of procreation) are clearer examples of criminalized sexual behavior between two consenting adults. I know some folks who'd like to outlaw them today in the US and they are currently outlawed elsewhere, but I believe what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is their own business.