4 ms·

At least on linux programs shouldn't update themselves. This is the package manager's job.

by ginko 1y ago

vbezhenar 1y ago
Not everyone prefers to use package manager. I think that package manager is weird concept and should not exist.
- CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
  Do you feel the same way about app stores too, like AppStore or Windows Store? What is your preferred way of downloading/installation applications and keeping them up to date? Personally I love being able to run one command and update everything in one swoop when I have time for it, instead of individually updating things all the time.
  - vbezhenar 1y ago
    > Do you feel the same way about app stores too, like AppStore or Windows Store? AppStores are good enough, as long as they're optional file hosting and censorship service and do not change actual application. So basically I want no middle-man between developer build and my computer. If developer uploads their application to AppStore and the app gets downloaded to my computer unchanged, that's fine. If some unrelated person pulls sources from github, alters them, builds them and ships them to my computer, that's what I don't like. > What is your preferred way of downloading/installation applications and keeping them up to date? Best way is statically linked binary available for direct download (many Golang and Rust apps are distributed this way directly from github). I check for updates when I feel like it, which might not be the best way, so some automatic update reminders are welcome, but by no means are necessary. Second best way is targzipped directory which I unpack into something like ~/apps/idea and then it keeps itself up to date automatically. Another thing that I don't like about package managers is that they spill application files all over filesystem. That's also wrong. Files which belong to application must be kept in one place. Ideally separated by chroot-like mechanisms.
- ta8903 1y ago
  What do you suggest as an alternative? Some kind of app store that periodically updates everything? The biggest thing package managers resolve is having everything be updated in the background, I'm tired of taking 5 minutes apart to update Wireshark everytime I use it.
- ginko 1y ago
  Package managers are the only sane way to install software. Even Windows + Mac OS somewhat came to realize this (even though their implementations are terrible compared to what we have in Linux land). It's shocking that people disagree with this. Do you really want to go back to the days where you had to download installers from the internet or copy-paste random 'curl | sudo sh' lines? Running software shouldn't even have the file permissions to change anything about its own installation.
  - danudey 1y ago
    Note that you can still do things wrong even if you're doing "package management". This morning I updated Firefox through apt, and suddenly the "running" Firefox windows weren't attached to the dock icon, and clicking on the dock icon launched the new FF installation. Also, Ubuntu's "snap" approach to installing apps is a nightmare that causes no end of problems - unless they ended after I gave up on it. Multiple installs overlapping each other, and I once even had the Firefox snap using a downloads folder in the Skype snap's local data. Honestly, even with package managers handling all the nitty gritty applications should still be written in such a way that they can quickly sync their state to disk and reload it so that after an app update the app can quickly re-launch with the updated version rather than risking a mix of old and new.
- nesarkvechnep 1y ago
  What alternative do you propose?
- 5d41402abc4b 1y ago
  Whats weird about it?
- 1718627440 1y ago
  Similarly how you shouldn't write and execute a page at the same time, a program shouldn't have the rights to change itself on disk.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Yes, tarballs were great! /s
EvanAnderson 1y ago
It should be the OS package manager's job on Windows, too. That wheel, and all the corner cases, doesn't need to be reinvented. Applications that update themselves louse-up least privilege user accounts, for example.

At least on linux programs shouldn't update themselves. This is the package manager's job.

by ginko 1y ago

At least on linux programs shouldn't update themselves. This is the package manager's job.

vbezhenar 1y ago

Not everyone prefers to use package manager. I think that package manager is weird concept and should not exist.

CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
Do you feel the same way about app stores too, like AppStore or Windows Store? What is your preferred way of downloading/installation applications and keeping them up to date? Personally I love being able to run one command and update everything in one swoop when I have time for it, instead of individually updating things all the time.
- vbezhenar 1y ago
  > Do you feel the same way about app stores too, like AppStore or Windows Store? AppStores are good enough, as long as they're optional file hosting and censorship service and do not change actual application. So basically I want no middle-man between developer build and my computer. If developer uploads their application to AppStore and the app gets downloaded to my computer unchanged, that's fine. If some unrelated person pulls sources from github, alters them, builds them and ships them to my computer, that's what I don't like. > What is your preferred way of downloading/installation applications and keeping them up to date? Best way is statically linked binary available for direct download (many Golang and Rust apps are distributed this way directly from github). I check for updates when I feel like it, which might not be the best way, so some automatic update reminders are welcome, but by no means are necessary. Second best way is targzipped directory which I unpack into something like ~/apps/idea and then it keeps itself up to date automatically. Another thing that I don't like about package managers is that they spill application files all over filesystem. That's also wrong. Files which belong to application must be kept in one place. Ideally separated by chroot-like mechanisms.
ta8903 1y ago
What do you suggest as an alternative? Some kind of app store that periodically updates everything? The biggest thing package managers resolve is having everything be updated in the background, I'm tired of taking 5 minutes apart to update Wireshark everytime I use it.
ginko 1y ago
Package managers are the only sane way to install software. Even Windows + Mac OS somewhat came to realize this (even though their implementations are terrible compared to what we have in Linux land). It's shocking that people disagree with this. Do you really want to go back to the days where you had to download installers from the internet or copy-paste random 'curl | sudo sh' lines? Running software shouldn't even have the file permissions to change anything about its own installation.
- danudey 1y ago
  Note that you can still do things wrong even if you're doing "package management". This morning I updated Firefox through apt, and suddenly the "running" Firefox windows weren't attached to the dock icon, and clicking on the dock icon launched the new FF installation. Also, Ubuntu's "snap" approach to installing apps is a nightmare that causes no end of problems - unless they ended after I gave up on it. Multiple installs overlapping each other, and I once even had the Firefox snap using a downloads folder in the Skype snap's local data. Honestly, even with package managers handling all the nitty gritty applications should still be written in such a way that they can quickly sync their state to disk and reload it so that after an app update the app can quickly re-launch with the updated version rather than risking a mix of old and new.
nesarkvechnep 1y ago
What alternative do you propose?
5d41402abc4b 1y ago
Whats weird about it?
1718627440 1y ago
Similarly how you shouldn't write and execute a page at the same time, a program shouldn't have the rights to change itself on disk.
pjmlp 1y ago
Yes, tarballs were great! /s

EvanAnderson 1y ago

It should be the OS package manager's job on Windows, too. That wheel, and all the corner cases, doesn't need to be reinvented. Applications that update themselves louse-up least privilege user accounts, for example.