5 ms·

I feel bad for my friends that are married with kids working at places like microsoft, telling me how their copilot usage is tracked and they fear that if they

I feel bad for my friends that are married with kids working at places like microsoft, telling me how their copilot usage is tracked and they fear that if they don't hit some arbitrary weekly metric they will fall victim to the next wave of layoffs.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
teiferer 1y ago
Even married people with kids can switch companies. Sometimes that implies a pay cut, but not always. And if they really tied their livelihood to working at the same company for next decade because they maxed out their lifestyle relative to the income generated by that company, then that falls all on them and I don't actually feel that bad for them.
- zwnow 1y ago
  Absolutely, programmers are paid exceptionally well compared to a lot of other jobs. If they live paycheck to paycheck they are doing things wrong, especially when having family.
  - ViscountPenguin 1y ago
    The hedonic treadmill really gets away from some people. I've had coworkers on 7 figures talk about how they couldn't possibly retire because the costs of living in (HCOL city) are far too high for that. When you dig down into it, there's usually some insane luxury that they're completely unwilling to give up on. If you're a software engineer in the United States, or in London, you can almost certainly FIRE.
    - zwnow 1y ago
      Yup it's insane to me. I am a software developer in Germany making 30k (after taxes) and manage to save up 600-700€ a month while still living really good (rural area, no car). Absolutely not enough to retire early but easily enough to not live paycheck to paycheck. Making 6 figures in the USA and not being able to afford life is so cryptic to me.
      - lnsru 1y ago
        Add family and 100k after taxes in Munich will be no big deal. I could live alone in the car, but the kids might want their own rooms and their own beds.
        zwnow 1y ago
        100k is a unreachable dream for me unless I found a business myself and actually succeed. Munich is expensive, I've seen some prices there. I live near Denmark though so Munich would not be a option in the first place. I could afford a house considering my savings rate and current appartment rent. Not a big one but it would be enough. Have no reason to buy one for myself though.
        jamil7 1y ago
        You can do over 100k if you freelance but it's risky to be a freelancer in a lot of ways in Germany. Salaries in Berlin and Munich are approaching 100k or over for leadership roles. The problem is COL in both cities is high and Berlin you basically can't get a flat anymore even if you can pay the rent on it.
- Root_Denied 1y ago
  >And if they really tied their livelihood to working at the same company for next decade because they maxed out their lifestyle relative to the income generated by that company, then that falls all on them and I don't actually feel that bad for them. I'd say that there's some room for nuance there. Tech hiring has slowed significantly, such that even people in senior roles who get laid off may be looking for a long time. If you work for Microsoft you're not getting top tier comp already (at least as compared with many other tech companies), and then on top of that you're required to work out of a V/HCOL city. Add in the expenses of a family, which have risen dramatically the last few years, and it's easy to find examples of people who are starting to get stretched paycheck to paycheck who weren't having that issue a couple of years ago. Check the prices in Seattle, SF, LA, DC, and NYC metro areas for 2-4 bedroom rentals and how they've jumped the last few years. You're looking at 35%-45% of their take home pay just on rent even before utilities. I'm not sure the math works out all that well for people trying to support a family, even with both parents working.
  - teiferer 1y ago
    > Add in the expenses of a family, which have risen dramatically the last few years, and it's easy to find examples of people who are starting to get stretched paycheck to paycheck If you maxed out your lifestyle relative to your income then yes, that is the case. It will always be, no matter how much you make. It's also the case for the guy stocking the shelves at your local Walmart if he maxes out his lifestyle. But if you compare both in absolute terms, there are huge differences. Which lifestyle you have is your choice. How big of a house, what car, where to eat, hobbies, clothes, how many kids, etc. If you max that out, fine, enjoy it. But own that it was your choice and comes with consequences, i.e., if expenses rise more than income, then suddenly your personal economy is stretched. And that's on you.
    - hitarpetar 1y ago
      it's interesting watching people work so hard to not feel empathy
      - 1y ago
- tho23i4909234u 1y ago
  For the H1Bs, I've heard that it's a nightmare.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Depends on the job market on their area.
oezi 1y ago
And that's why performance tracking is prohibited in countries where unions still have a bit of power.
- bloppe 1y ago
  Yeesh. Prohibited? Then how do you decide who gets a promotion? At random?
  - OlivOnTech 1y ago
    You have human managers discussing with their team (instead of human-decided metrics that cannot see the full picture)
    - bloppe 1y ago
      As companies grow, they tend to move away from subjective performance reviews like that and toward more objective metrics. Otherwise, it's too easy for personal politics to contaminate the promotion process. Employees are incentivized to find whichever manager will give them 5 star reviews no matter what, and managers are incentivized to be that guy, because then they have access to the best employees. When a company is small, and everyone knows everyone, this is not an issue. But when 90% of the company is a stranger to you, you need more objective metrics to rely on.
      - thunderfork 1y ago
        [dead]
  - ehnto 1y ago
    Not that hard, but also why would you want to promote based on metrics? That will get you people gaming the system, and I can't imagine a single software dev metric that actually captures the full gamut of value a dev can provide. You will surely miss very valuable devs in your metrics.
    - 1y ago
adammarples 1y ago
Easy way to game that would be to spam a couple of pages of unread documentation for every page of code you write. 2/3rds copilot usage, it's not critical, and documenting existing code is a much more likely to work use case for an LLM.
- p_v_doom 1y ago
  I mean, nobody reads documentation anyway
moomoo11 1y ago
Why feel bad? They signed up for that. There is no reason to feel bad for people who enter into voluntary contracts willingly. Personally I want my MSFT position to increase, so I’m cool with whatever the company does to increase the share price.
- piva00 1y ago
  Feel bad because you have empathy? Or perhaps that's the problem, lacking it.
xigoi 1y ago
In my native language we have the saying, “Do good to the devil, and he’ll repay you with hell.” I don’t know if there is an English equivalent.
- monster_truck 1y ago
  I like this
palmotea 1y ago
> I feel bad for my friends that are married with kids working at places like microsoft, telling me how their copilot usage is tracked and they fear that if they don't hit some arbitrary weekly metric they will fall victim to the next wave of layoffs. It's not just Microsoft. Other smaller employers are aping those guys. My employer has an utterly ridiculous PowerBI dashboard tracking how much every employee uses LLM-based tools. Make sure to enable the Premium models, because otherwise you won't get credit! There are naughty lists for people whose usage is too low. Luckily the usage goals (for now) aren't very high. However, they're also getting anal about tracking tasks, and the powers at be have asserted control over all aspects of story creation and work process. There's speculation they're going to start tracking story completion rates, and demanding measured productivity increases.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

teiferer 1y ago

Even married people with kids can switch companies. Sometimes that implies a pay cut, but not always. And if they really tied their livelihood to working at the same company for next decade because they maxed out their lifestyle relative to the income generated by that company, then that falls all on them and I don't actually feel that bad for them.

zwnow 1y ago
Absolutely, programmers are paid exceptionally well compared to a lot of other jobs. If they live paycheck to paycheck they are doing things wrong, especially when having family.
- ViscountPenguin 1y ago
  The hedonic treadmill really gets away from some people. I've had coworkers on 7 figures talk about how they couldn't possibly retire because the costs of living in (HCOL city) are far too high for that. When you dig down into it, there's usually some insane luxury that they're completely unwilling to give up on. If you're a software engineer in the United States, or in London, you can almost certainly FIRE.
  - zwnow 1y ago
    Yup it's insane to me. I am a software developer in Germany making 30k (after taxes) and manage to save up 600-700€ a month while still living really good (rural area, no car). Absolutely not enough to retire early but easily enough to not live paycheck to paycheck. Making 6 figures in the USA and not being able to afford life is so cryptic to me.
    - lnsru 1y ago
      Add family and 100k after taxes in Munich will be no big deal. I could live alone in the car, but the kids might want their own rooms and their own beds.
      - zwnow 1y ago
        100k is a unreachable dream for me unless I found a business myself and actually succeed. Munich is expensive, I've seen some prices there. I live near Denmark though so Munich would not be a option in the first place. I could afford a house considering my savings rate and current appartment rent. Not a big one but it would be enough. Have no reason to buy one for myself though.
        jamil7 1y ago
        You can do over 100k if you freelance but it's risky to be a freelancer in a lot of ways in Germany. Salaries in Berlin and Munich are approaching 100k or over for leadership roles. The problem is COL in both cities is high and Berlin you basically can't get a flat anymore even if you can pay the rent on it.
Root_Denied 1y ago
>And if they really tied their livelihood to working at the same company for next decade because they maxed out their lifestyle relative to the income generated by that company, then that falls all on them and I don't actually feel that bad for them. I'd say that there's some room for nuance there. Tech hiring has slowed significantly, such that even people in senior roles who get laid off may be looking for a long time. If you work for Microsoft you're not getting top tier comp already (at least as compared with many other tech companies), and then on top of that you're required to work out of a V/HCOL city. Add in the expenses of a family, which have risen dramatically the last few years, and it's easy to find examples of people who are starting to get stretched paycheck to paycheck who weren't having that issue a couple of years ago. Check the prices in Seattle, SF, LA, DC, and NYC metro areas for 2-4 bedroom rentals and how they've jumped the last few years. You're looking at 35%-45% of their take home pay just on rent even before utilities. I'm not sure the math works out all that well for people trying to support a family, even with both parents working.
- teiferer 1y ago
  > Add in the expenses of a family, which have risen dramatically the last few years, and it's easy to find examples of people who are starting to get stretched paycheck to paycheck If you maxed out your lifestyle relative to your income then yes, that is the case. It will always be, no matter how much you make. It's also the case for the guy stocking the shelves at your local Walmart if he maxes out his lifestyle. But if you compare both in absolute terms, there are huge differences. Which lifestyle you have is your choice. How big of a house, what car, where to eat, hobbies, clothes, how many kids, etc. If you max that out, fine, enjoy it. But own that it was your choice and comes with consequences, i.e., if expenses rise more than income, then suddenly your personal economy is stretched. And that's on you.
  - hitarpetar 1y ago
    it's interesting watching people work so hard to not feel empathy
    - 1y ago
tho23i4909234u 1y ago
For the H1Bs, I've heard that it's a nightmare.
pjmlp 1y ago
Depends on the job market on their area.

oezi 1y ago

And that's why performance tracking is prohibited in countries where unions still have a bit of power.

bloppe 1y ago
Yeesh. Prohibited? Then how do you decide who gets a promotion? At random?
- OlivOnTech 1y ago
  You have human managers discussing with their team (instead of human-decided metrics that cannot see the full picture)
  - bloppe 1y ago
    As companies grow, they tend to move away from subjective performance reviews like that and toward more objective metrics. Otherwise, it's too easy for personal politics to contaminate the promotion process. Employees are incentivized to find whichever manager will give them 5 star reviews no matter what, and managers are incentivized to be that guy, because then they have access to the best employees. When a company is small, and everyone knows everyone, this is not an issue. But when 90% of the company is a stranger to you, you need more objective metrics to rely on.
    - thunderfork 1y ago
      [dead]
- ehnto 1y ago
  Not that hard, but also why would you want to promote based on metrics? That will get you people gaming the system, and I can't imagine a single software dev metric that actually captures the full gamut of value a dev can provide. You will surely miss very valuable devs in your metrics.
  - 1y ago

adammarples 1y ago

Easy way to game that would be to spam a couple of pages of unread documentation for every page of code you write. 2/3rds copilot usage, it's not critical, and documenting existing code is a much more likely to work use case for an LLM.

p_v_doom 1y ago
I mean, nobody reads documentation anyway

moomoo11 1y ago

Why feel bad? They signed up for that. There is no reason to feel bad for people who enter into voluntary contracts willingly. Personally I want my MSFT position to increase, so I’m cool with whatever the company does to increase the share price.

piva00 1y ago
Feel bad because you have empathy? Or perhaps that's the problem, lacking it.

xigoi 1y ago

In my native language we have the saying, “Do good to the devil, and he’ll repay you with hell.” I don’t know if there is an English equivalent.

monster_truck 1y ago
I like this

palmotea 1y ago

> I feel bad for my friends that are married with kids working at places like microsoft, telling me how their copilot usage is tracked and they fear that if they don't hit some arbitrary weekly metric they will fall victim to the next wave of layoffs. It's not just Microsoft. Other smaller employers are aping those guys. My employer has an utterly ridiculous PowerBI dashboard tracking how much every employee uses LLM-based tools. Make sure to enable the Premium models, because otherwise you won't get credit! There are naughty lists for people whose usage is too low. Luckily the usage goals (for now) aren't very high. However, they're also getting anal about tracking tasks, and the powers at be have asserted control over all aspects of story creation and work process. There's speculation they're going to start tracking story completion rates, and demanding measured productivity increases.