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> Is it getting brushed off as merely a compiler bug? Yes, this thread contains an example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45587209 https://news.ycombina

> Is it getting brushed off as merely a compiler bug? Yes, this thread contains an example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45587209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45587209 . (I linked the same bug you did in the comment that that's a reply to.) The Rust team may see this as a language design issue internally, and I'd be inclined to agree. Rust's outward-facing marketing does not reflect this view.

aw1621107 1y ago
> I linked the same bug you did in the comment that that's a reply to Ah, my apologies. Not sure exactly how I managed to miss that. That being said, I guess I might have read that bit of your comment different than you had in mind; I was thinking of whether the Rust devs were dismissing language design issues as compiler bugs, not what third parties (albeit one with an unusually relevant history in this case) may think. > Rust's outward-facing marketing does not reflect this view. As above, perhaps I interpret the phrase "outward-facing marketing" differently than you do. I typically associate that (and "marketing" in general, in this context) with more official channels, whether that's official posts or posts by active devs in an official capacity.
- csande17 1y ago
  Oh, I didn't realize steveklabnik wasn't an official member of the project anymore (as of 2022 apparently: https://blog.rust-lang.org/2022/01/31/changes-in-the-core-team/ https://blog.rust-lang.org/2022/01/31/changes-in-the-core-te... ). I do think he still expressed this position back when he was a major public face of the language, but it seems unfair to single him out and dig through his comment history. Rust's marketing is pretty grassroots in general, but even current official sources like https://rust-lang.org/ https://rust-lang.org/ say things like "Rust’s rich type system and ownership model guarantee memory-safety" that are only true of the vague-ideal "Rust language" and are not true of the type system they actually designed and implemented in the Rust compiler.
  - aw1621107 1y ago
    Yeah, Steve has been "just" a well-informed third party for a while now. I would be curious if he has commented on that specific issue before; usually when unsoundness comes up it's cve-rs which is mentioned. > but even current official sources like https://rust-lang.org/ https://rust-lang.org/ say things like "Rust’s rich type system and ownership model guarantee memory-safety" that are only true of the vague-ideal "Rust language" and are not true of the type system they actually designed and implemented in the Rust compiler. That's an understandable point, though I think something similar would arguably still apply even if Rust had a "proper" spec since a "proper" spec doesn't necessarily rule out underspecification/omissions/mistakes/etc, both in the spec and in the implementation. A "real" formal spec à la WebAssembly might solve that issue, but given the lack of time/resources for a "normal" spec at the time a "real" one would have been a pipe dream at best. That being said, I think it's an interesting question as to what should be done if/when you discover an issue like the trait coherence one, whether you have a spec or not. "Aspirational" marketing doesn't exactly feel nice, but changing your marketing every time you discover/fix a bug also doesn't exactly feel nice for other reasons. Bit of a fun fact - it appears that the particular trait coherence issue actually has existed in some form since Rust 1.0, and was only noticed a few years later when the issue was filed. Perhaps a proper specification effort would have caught it (especially since one of the devs said they had concerns when implementing a relevant check), but given it had taken that long to discover I wouldn't be too surprised if it would have been missed anyway.
    - csande17 1y ago
      I agree that it's a tough situation. "The type system guarantees memory safety" is an extremely important pillar of Rust's identity. They kind of have to portray all soundness issues as "more compiler bugs than something broken in the language itself" (see eg https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21930599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21930599 which references a GitHub label that AIUI would've included the trait coherence thing at the time) to keep making that claim. It is a core part of the marketing strategy.
      - steveklabnik 1y ago

aw1621107 1y ago

> I linked the same bug you did in the comment that that's a reply to Ah, my apologies. Not sure exactly how I managed to miss that. That being said, I guess I might have read that bit of your comment different than you had in mind; I was thinking of whether the Rust devs were dismissing language design issues as compiler bugs, not what third parties (albeit one with an unusually relevant history in this case) may think. > Rust's outward-facing marketing does not reflect this view. As above, perhaps I interpret the phrase "outward-facing marketing" differently than you do. I typically associate that (and "marketing" in general, in this context) with more official channels, whether that's official posts or posts by active devs in an official capacity.

csande17 1y ago
Oh, I didn't realize steveklabnik wasn't an official member of the project anymore (as of 2022 apparently: https://blog.rust-lang.org/2022/01/31/changes-in-the-core-team/ https://blog.rust-lang.org/2022/01/31/changes-in-the-core-te... ). I do think he still expressed this position back when he was a major public face of the language, but it seems unfair to single him out and dig through his comment history. Rust's marketing is pretty grassroots in general, but even current official sources like https://rust-lang.org/ https://rust-lang.org/ say things like "Rust’s rich type system and ownership model guarantee memory-safety" that are only true of the vague-ideal "Rust language" and are not true of the type system they actually designed and implemented in the Rust compiler.
- aw1621107 1y ago
  Yeah, Steve has been "just" a well-informed third party for a while now. I would be curious if he has commented on that specific issue before; usually when unsoundness comes up it's cve-rs which is mentioned. > but even current official sources like https://rust-lang.org/ https://rust-lang.org/ say things like "Rust’s rich type system and ownership model guarantee memory-safety" that are only true of the vague-ideal "Rust language" and are not true of the type system they actually designed and implemented in the Rust compiler. That's an understandable point, though I think something similar would arguably still apply even if Rust had a "proper" spec since a "proper" spec doesn't necessarily rule out underspecification/omissions/mistakes/etc, both in the spec and in the implementation. A "real" formal spec à la WebAssembly might solve that issue, but given the lack of time/resources for a "normal" spec at the time a "real" one would have been a pipe dream at best. That being said, I think it's an interesting question as to what should be done if/when you discover an issue like the trait coherence one, whether you have a spec or not. "Aspirational" marketing doesn't exactly feel nice, but changing your marketing every time you discover/fix a bug also doesn't exactly feel nice for other reasons. Bit of a fun fact - it appears that the particular trait coherence issue actually has existed in some form since Rust 1.0, and was only noticed a few years later when the issue was filed. Perhaps a proper specification effort would have caught it (especially since one of the devs said they had concerns when implementing a relevant check), but given it had taken that long to discover I wouldn't be too surprised if it would have been missed anyway.
  - csande17 1y ago
    I agree that it's a tough situation. "The type system guarantees memory safety" is an extremely important pillar of Rust's identity. They kind of have to portray all soundness issues as "more compiler bugs than something broken in the language itself" (see eg https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21930599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21930599 which references a GitHub label that AIUI would've included the trait coherence thing at the time) to keep making that claim. It is a core part of the marketing strategy.
    - steveklabnik 1y ago