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> When societies manage to "stomp out" crime they're no less brutal than when they attempt to stop a pandemic. I don't think this is necessarily true. Because

> When societies manage to "stomp out" crime they're no less brutal than when they attempt to stop a pandemic. I don't think this is necessarily true. Because when trying to stamp out a pandemic, everybody was negatively affected. When trying to stamp out crime, it's overwhelmingly suspected criminals that are affected. Not long ago El-Salvador had literally the highest homicide rate in the world and was just a domestic war-zone. It's now rated as the 8th safest country in the world [1]. What did they do? Dramatically bump up the penalties for gang membership, round up gang members, and throw them into militarized prisons. Their President now has a 90%+ approval rating, and is one of the most well regarded leaders in the world. Obviously there's a 'First they came for the Communists, And I did not speak out, Because I was not a Communist...' type concern here. But in this case, it seems that first they came for the criminals, crime plummeted, and everybody lived happily ever after. And again there are also completely reasonable human rights concerns, but the thing I think people often disregard in this calculus is the human rights of the literally 99% of people who were previously being terrorized, killed, robbed, and so on by the 1% of people. They have obviously rounded up some people who are innocent and they are making efforts to resolve that, and I hope those who are truly innocent receive fair compensation for the distress. But if one views human rights as a net (gains, versus losses), then El Salvador is vastly more humane than it was in the past. [1] - https://news.gallup.com/poll/650516/global-safety-starts-slip.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/650516/global-safety-starts-sli...

tastyface 1y ago
Uh, El Salvador? The place where we just sent 200 largely innocent Venezuelas (and unknown numbers of others) to be tortured and raped extrajudicially -- a miscarriage of justice that Bukele was fully aware of and openly joked about on TV? The country that trotted out Kilmar Ábrego García for a dog-and-pony cocktail hour to pretend that he wasn't being held indefinitely under brutal conditions and without access to legal council? The country that pushed to impede a US probe of actual MS-13 gangsters due to likely corruption in the Bukele government? *That* El Salvador is our shining light? Yeah, I guess crime is trivial to fix if you automatically get a life sentence at the gulag for having a tattoo or mouthing off at an authority figure (for certain definitions of crime). A country headed by devils cannot, by definition, be humane.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  If people were being imprisoned for "having a tattoo or mouthing off at an authority figure" there wouldn't be 90%+ approval, and way more of the population would be imprisoned. It's easy to create a lawless dystopia. It's also easy to create a 'over-lawed' authoritarian dystopia. Neither tend to be much liked by the population. The balance is in cracking down hard on criminality while avoiding overstepping that into complete authoritarianism. I think one of the easiest ways to measure this is simply by looking at approval ratings and so, for now at least, El Salvador is very successfully maintaining that balance. --- Actually you just sent me down a rabbit hole watching videos of modern El Salvador. Here [1] is a great one with some dude just interacting with the locals, and discussing the changes. Lol, I seriously want to go there now. It looks like an amazing place to visit. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sISlhyuuDXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sISlhyuuDXg
  - tastyface 1y ago
    Stalinist Russia had great approval ratings, too.
    - somenameforme 1y ago
      No he didn't, at all. AFAIK there were no formal approval polls at the time, but Stalin himself acknowledged his 'popularity' with his rather famous quote, "I know that after my death a pile of rubbish will be heaped on my grave, but the winds of history will sooner or later sweep it away without mercy." And indeed as soon as he died there was a widespread movement of 'De-Stalinization.' For some more fun context - this is also the era that Gorbachev grew up in which is probably what planted the seed in him for disdain of the Soviet System that he would eventually play a key role in collapsing.
      - tastyface 1y ago
        It is well known that Stalin enjoyed widespread popularity in the Soviet Union, even during the Purge years. But fine, substitute Putin if you wish. Russia is a country riddled with crime and corruption, completely undemocratic, with journalists and political rivals getting murdered left and right, and mired in a cataclysmic war with a once-friendly neighbor. Yet Putin polls extremely well. Entrenched authoritarianism does not tolerate dissent. This should not come as a surprise. And I don’t have my citations on hand, but I’ve read a number of articles where Salvadorans express the same sentiment: ratings are inflated because people are scared to speak out. On top of that, the government is horribly corrupt, capturing small fry while letting the big fish swim away: https://www.propublica.org/article/bukele-trump-el-salvador-ms13-gang-vulcan-corruption-investigation https://www.propublica.org/article/bukele-trump-el-salvador-... And the justice system has been weaponized against activists, journalists, and opposition groups: https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2025/06/at-least-40-journalists-have-fled-el-salvador-fearing-imprisonment https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2025/06/at-least-40-journal... I’m sure this is more than acceptable to some of those not currently in the government’s crosshairs. Unfortunately, there is no off-ramp for this flavor of authoritarianism. Bukele will remain dictator and El Salvador will no longer be a democracy.
pjc50 1y ago
> It's now rated as the 8th safest country in the world I wonder if that's achieved by actual crime reduction or just by arresting journalists who try to report crime.

tastyface 1y ago

Uh, El Salvador? The place where we just sent 200 largely innocent Venezuelas (and unknown numbers of others) to be tortured and raped extrajudicially -- a miscarriage of justice that Bukele was fully aware of and openly joked about on TV? The country that trotted out Kilmar Ábrego García for a dog-and-pony cocktail hour to pretend that he wasn't being held indefinitely under brutal conditions and without access to legal council? The country that pushed to impede a US probe of actual MS-13 gangsters due to likely corruption in the Bukele government? *That* El Salvador is our shining light? Yeah, I guess crime is trivial to fix if you automatically get a life sentence at the gulag for having a tattoo or mouthing off at an authority figure (for certain definitions of crime). A country headed by devils cannot, by definition, be humane.

somenameforme 1y ago
If people were being imprisoned for "having a tattoo or mouthing off at an authority figure" there wouldn't be 90%+ approval, and way more of the population would be imprisoned. It's easy to create a lawless dystopia. It's also easy to create a 'over-lawed' authoritarian dystopia. Neither tend to be much liked by the population. The balance is in cracking down hard on criminality while avoiding overstepping that into complete authoritarianism. I think one of the easiest ways to measure this is simply by looking at approval ratings and so, for now at least, El Salvador is very successfully maintaining that balance. --- Actually you just sent me down a rabbit hole watching videos of modern El Salvador. Here [1] is a great one with some dude just interacting with the locals, and discussing the changes. Lol, I seriously want to go there now. It looks like an amazing place to visit. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sISlhyuuDXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sISlhyuuDXg
- tastyface 1y ago
  Stalinist Russia had great approval ratings, too.
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    No he didn't, at all. AFAIK there were no formal approval polls at the time, but Stalin himself acknowledged his 'popularity' with his rather famous quote, "I know that after my death a pile of rubbish will be heaped on my grave, but the winds of history will sooner or later sweep it away without mercy." And indeed as soon as he died there was a widespread movement of 'De-Stalinization.' For some more fun context - this is also the era that Gorbachev grew up in which is probably what planted the seed in him for disdain of the Soviet System that he would eventually play a key role in collapsing.
    - tastyface 1y ago
      It is well known that Stalin enjoyed widespread popularity in the Soviet Union, even during the Purge years. But fine, substitute Putin if you wish. Russia is a country riddled with crime and corruption, completely undemocratic, with journalists and political rivals getting murdered left and right, and mired in a cataclysmic war with a once-friendly neighbor. Yet Putin polls extremely well. Entrenched authoritarianism does not tolerate dissent. This should not come as a surprise. And I don’t have my citations on hand, but I’ve read a number of articles where Salvadorans express the same sentiment: ratings are inflated because people are scared to speak out. On top of that, the government is horribly corrupt, capturing small fry while letting the big fish swim away: https://www.propublica.org/article/bukele-trump-el-salvador-ms13-gang-vulcan-corruption-investigation https://www.propublica.org/article/bukele-trump-el-salvador-... And the justice system has been weaponized against activists, journalists, and opposition groups: https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2025/06/at-least-40-journalists-have-fled-el-salvador-fearing-imprisonment https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2025/06/at-least-40-journal... I’m sure this is more than acceptable to some of those not currently in the government’s crosshairs. Unfortunately, there is no off-ramp for this flavor of authoritarianism. Bukele will remain dictator and El Salvador will no longer be a democracy.

pjc50 1y ago

> It's now rated as the 8th safest country in the world I wonder if that's achieved by actual crime reduction or just by arresting journalists who try to report crime.