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Sounds like good news but the press release doesn't detail how the FBI managed to trace, positively identify and then seize such a huge pile of crypto ($15B) fr

Sounds like good news but the press release doesn't detail how the FBI managed to trace, positively identify and then seize such a huge pile of crypto ($15B) from a suspect they say took extensive steps to launder and hide the source and ownership of the crypto. I'm curious because this guy is clearly very experienced, highly sophisticated and located in a country where the government and law enforcement are obviously tacitly protecting him. So did the U.S. hack this guy? Anyone who manages to build such a massive multi-national corporation with myriad illicit businesses but also dozens of legitimate businesses with thousands of employees - including a large bank with over 100,000 customers - and then operate it all for over a decade, doesn't strike me as someone who's trivially careless. I mean he managed to successfully protect that much money for a long time from his own criminal co-conspirators (who would certainly include hackers with insider knowledge of his operations), criminal competitors and all the people he was bribing like senior Cambodian politicians, law enforcement and intelligence agencies. This just strikes me as either a very lucky break or a perhaps a sign that the FBI is adopting a new playbook to go after shielded international operations like this. Like maybe involving U.S. and 'Five Eyes' intelligence assets.

lotsofpulp 1y ago
I am also curious how the US government obtained possession of the bitcoin if the defendant is still at large. Doesn’t that defeat the whole point of bitcoin?
- sidewndr46 1y ago
  According to Ars Technica: "Adding further mystery, it’s unknown how federal officials managed to obtain the cryptographic keys required to seize the funds from Zhi." My assumption is that at this point they just have orders from a judge allowing them to do it and they will find the means later.
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    Allowing them to do what? The feds are saying they already have the keys, so either they are lying, or they already had the means to get the keys. Which would be the juicy part of the story.
    - mrandish 1y ago
      > they already had the means to get the keys. Yes, and the other big questions are how they even know about the existence of the bitcoin and then how they were able to demonstrate sufficient probable cause to a judge that A) the bitcoin belongs to the suspect, and B) this bitcoin is the direct proceeds of the charged crimes. Given the extremely unusual circumstances around this seizure, its unprecedented size and the complete lack of details - I suspect something new and interesting has happened here. Unfortunately, we may never find out unless they manage to arrest the suspect, which seems unlikely. The more interesting scenario might be if the Prince Group files suit challenging the seizure. In that case, the government would not only have to produce evidence proving A and B above, but also that the evidence wasn't obtained illegally (like from secret NSA wiretaps on domestic Cambodian telecoms or targeted covert hacking). Given the circumstances, it's hard to imagine the FBI being able to offer plausible 'parallel construction' to support the legality of the evidence.
      - usrusr 1y ago
        Finding a judge who does not really understand what Bitcoin is won't be too hard. All your "evidence wasn't obtained illegally" and so on are questions impossiblec to ask without a reasonable amount of knowledge. Requirements of a judge order aren't really much of a bar to jump, hardly more than a four eyes formality.
    - csomar 1y ago
      According to the indictment: > Those funds (the Defendant Cryptocurrency) are presently in the custody of the U.S. government. > The defendant and his co-conspirators subsequently used some of the criminal proceeds for luxury travel and entertainment and to make extravagant purchases such as watches, yachts, private jets, vacation homes, high-end collectables, and rare artwork, including a Picasso painting purchased through an auction house in New York City. My guess some of defendants were in New York or around the US. You can be a criminal master mind and also be a complete f*king idiot.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
tonyhart7 1y ago
"but the press release doesn't detail how the FBI managed to trace, positively identify and then seize such a huge pile of crypto ($15B) from a suspect they say took extensive steps" Am I slow??? or what under circumstance that you expect FBI to told press how their operate????

lotsofpulp 1y ago

I am also curious how the US government obtained possession of the bitcoin if the defendant is still at large. Doesn’t that defeat the whole point of bitcoin?

sidewndr46 1y ago
According to Ars Technica: "Adding further mystery, it’s unknown how federal officials managed to obtain the cryptographic keys required to seize the funds from Zhi." My assumption is that at this point they just have orders from a judge allowing them to do it and they will find the means later.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  Allowing them to do what? The feds are saying they already have the keys, so either they are lying, or they already had the means to get the keys. Which would be the juicy part of the story.
  - mrandish 1y ago
    > they already had the means to get the keys. Yes, and the other big questions are how they even know about the existence of the bitcoin and then how they were able to demonstrate sufficient probable cause to a judge that A) the bitcoin belongs to the suspect, and B) this bitcoin is the direct proceeds of the charged crimes. Given the extremely unusual circumstances around this seizure, its unprecedented size and the complete lack of details - I suspect something new and interesting has happened here. Unfortunately, we may never find out unless they manage to arrest the suspect, which seems unlikely. The more interesting scenario might be if the Prince Group files suit challenging the seizure. In that case, the government would not only have to produce evidence proving A and B above, but also that the evidence wasn't obtained illegally (like from secret NSA wiretaps on domestic Cambodian telecoms or targeted covert hacking). Given the circumstances, it's hard to imagine the FBI being able to offer plausible 'parallel construction' to support the legality of the evidence.
    - usrusr 1y ago
      Finding a judge who does not really understand what Bitcoin is won't be too hard. All your "evidence wasn't obtained illegally" and so on are questions impossiblec to ask without a reasonable amount of knowledge. Requirements of a judge order aren't really much of a bar to jump, hardly more than a four eyes formality.
  - csomar 1y ago
    According to the indictment: > Those funds (the Defendant Cryptocurrency) are presently in the custody of the U.S. government. > The defendant and his co-conspirators subsequently used some of the criminal proceeds for luxury travel and entertainment and to make extravagant purchases such as watches, yachts, private jets, vacation homes, high-end collectables, and rare artwork, including a Picasso painting purchased through an auction house in New York City. My guess some of defendants were in New York or around the US. You can be a criminal master mind and also be a complete f*king idiot.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

tonyhart7 1y ago

"but the press release doesn't detail how the FBI managed to trace, positively identify and then seize such a huge pile of crypto ($15B) from a suspect they say took extensive steps" Am I slow??? or what under circumstance that you expect FBI to told press how their operate????